MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Islamic State
Interview
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MATTHEWS: Let`s bring him on now. Eugene Robinson, thank you, sir. Thank, Howard Fineman.
Joining us right now is Republican senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. He`s a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and also the Homeland Security Committee.
Senator, thank you for joining us. Can you go through the realities of Capitol Hill? Do they reflect the voters on the Democratic side who don`t really want a ground war? On the Republican side, they`re willing to accept the development of this war, an escalation. Where are the two parties, and why are we not getting a vote between now and the election?
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Well, we`re not getting a vote because of the politics of the situation. But Chris, you mentioned the key word, "reality." The American people are accepting reality. They support President Obama`s stated goal of defeating ISIS. Nobody relishes war. You know, certainly, the American people don`t. I don`t. But you know, the fact is, we haven`t chosen to go to war with Islamic terror. They chose to go to war with us. And our only choice right now is, are we going to fight that war on the defense, or are we going to take the offensive here? Are we going to fight them overseas or are we going to simply treat this as a law enforcement activity and just be in total defense and fight them here on our shores?
So I think the American people are ahead of the politicians, certainly ahead of this administration, accepting that ugly reality that Islamic terrorists have declared war on us since at least 1993, when they tried taking down the World Trade Center, and this is going to be a long, hard struggle. It`s going to be difficult to defeat it.
But here`s where President Obama`s absolutely right. In his U.N. speech, which I thought was very strong, he said the Muslim community must rise up. They must publicly, visibly, loudly, reject and renounce Islamic terror, this ideology. And that is, in the end, what it`s going to take. But that`s going to take years.
MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you about more (ph) goals (ph). We know that Japan`s goal was to knock us out of the Pacific with Pearl Harbor. They didn`t want to invade the United States. They wanted to knock us out of the Pacific, and they thought they could do it. Turns out, they got us into the Pacific even stronger. We went to war with them and took every island back until we got to them.
OK, the Germans apparently -- what Hitler really wanted was most of Eastern Europe. He wanted Russia. He wanted to build a gigantic empire in the East, his Lebensraum, he called it.
What do you think ISIS really wants? They want to throw us out of the Middle East. They want to establish a caliphate. What do they want with the United States in the United States? What I`ve never quite figured out, what is their goal, as you see it? Their goal.
JOHNSON: Well, I mean, Islamic terror is -- is trying to destroy the modern world. Don`t ask me why, to establish this caliphate. I don`t think the leaders of ISIS --
MATTHEWS: Where?
JOHNSON: -- are stupid. You know, here -- here`s -- here`s what I think they want to do. Right now, I do believe they want to draw the U.S. and the West into this battle. But they want to draw us in because they don`t believe we have the staying power.
MATTHEWS: Right.
JOHNSON: I mean, Charles Krauthammer nailed it in his column. What they want -- they are counting on the fact that we won`t be in for the long term. We really won`t be --
MATTHEWS: Yes.
JOHNSON: -- in there to defeat ISIS, so that when we bug out of there in a couple of years, they can claim victory. They`ll be the preeminent --
MATTHEWS: Yes.
JOHNSON: -- Islamic terror group. They can establish their caliphate because that`s, I think, their final end --
MATTHEWS: Do you buy --
JOHNSON: But again, they`ve been -- go ahead.
MATTHEWS: Do you buy the whole Krauthammer -- I thought the article was well written, too, today. But he makes the case we`re going to end up like Likud politics, hard-right Israeli politics. We`re going to end up having to, quote, "mow the lawn" year after year, never really facing any kind of treaty with the Arabs ever. It`s just going to go on and on and on.
Now, if you`re Bibi Netanyahu, that`s smart politics because you never have to cut a deal then because the war has to continue. But at some point, don`t you think the United States is going to have to reach an end to this war, or do you believe it`s an endless process of, quote, as Krauthammer put it, "mowing the lawn," fighting terrorism as (ph) rest of our lives, our generations to come, never stopping? Is that how you see it?
JOHNSON: I tell you, I think it really is going to end up --
MATTHEWS: Pretty depressing.
JOHNSON: -- being in the hands of the Arab world. This is their moment
of choosing. Are they going to reject Islamic terror? Are they going to reject this ideology? Are they going to stop funding the madrassas and the mosques that preach this hate?
You know, and here`s President Obama`s real conundrum. You used that word earlier. If we -- if America leads too much, the Arab states are going to sit back and go, Oh, America`s going to take care of it one more time. If we don`t lead enough, we won`t be able to draw the Arab world into that coalition, 100 percent committed. So it`s a very fine line.
MATTHEWS: I know.
JOHNSON: I don`t envy President Obama`s task. But again, I really thought his U.N. speech was strong. He laid out the steps. We got to be realistic. We got to be honest with the American public, though. He was wrong in taking any action off the table. He was right in establishing the goal of defeating --
MATTHEWS: OK --
JOHNSON: -- Islamic terror first with ISIS and then around the world.
MATTHEWS: OK --
JOHNSON: And that`s why this is going to be a long, long, tough slog.
MATTHEWS: You just opened the question of -- would you support ground troops, if it came to it, if the military recommended it? Your party says they would, according to our polling.
JOHNSON: If that`s what it takes to defeat ISIS, yes. We`ve got to support --
MATTHEWS: OK.
JOHNSON: -- what it takes to achieve the goal that President Obama established.
MATTHEWS: Keep coming back, Senator. Thank you very much, Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin.
JOHNSON: Thanks for having me on.
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