MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Islamic State

Interview

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And joining me right now are two U.S. congressmen, Congressman Adam Schiff and Congressman John Garamendi, both of California.Congressman, Schiff, should the U.S. Congress vote on whether we go to war with ISIS?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Absolutely. The president is now talking about a multi-year military campaign against ISIS. This is quintessentially the kind of thing that Congress needs to vote on. We ought to have an authorization to use force. It ought to delimit what the president can do, what he can`t do, and it ought to have a sunset date.

So that`s what we should do. It`s our constitutional obligation. And I hope that`s what we`ll do in the next two weeks.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Garamendi, same question. Should there be an up or down vote on whether we go to war militarily with ISIS?

REP. JOHN GARAMENDI (D), CALIFORNIA: Five hundred and thirty-five of us raised our right hand and we swore to uphold the Constitution. The Constitution says Congress, the representatives of the people -- they`re the ones that will decide whether we go to war or not.

Absolutely, we have to vote. It`s our responsibility. We represent the people of the United States. It`s a decision for the people to make through our vote. We must vote.

This is a big deal. It`s our responsibility. The president has already started that process under the War Powers Act. He has notified Congress that he is taking military action, those first steps. That sets in place the 60-day clock. And that 60-day clock right now says we have to vote by October the 7th.

MATTHEWS: Let me go back to Congressman Schiff. What about the substance? Would you support a resolution which included the use of special, special operations forces on the ground?

SCHIFF: Well, I don`t want to see major ground troops...

MATTHEWS: No...

SCHIFF: ... in either Iraq or Syria...

MATTHEWS: ... special ops, people working with the Free Syrian

Army...

SCHIFF: Well...

MATTHEWS: ... special operations forces like we used in Afghanistan in the beginning.

SCHIFF: You know, I support what we`re doing on the ground in Iraq now, and we have military advisers that are trying to give us good intelligence. They`re trying to help train the Iraqi forces, helping us be more precise in our strikes.

I don`t think we`re there yet in Syria, Chris. We don`t have the same ground capability that we do, and the Peshmerga to work with. So I think it`s premature to be talking about air strikes in Syria or boots on the ground of any sort in Syria.

And this means that it`s going to be a very challenging issue in terms of drafting an authorization. But without a force that can hold ground in Syria, if we displace ISIS through air strikes, does it mean al Nusra moves in? Does it mean Assad`s forces move in? Until we can answer those questions, I don`t think we ought to be contemplating a major air campaign in Syria.

MATTHEWS: So right now, you wouldn`t support a resolution which allowed the president to go in militarily into Syria, just into Iraq?

SCHIFF: Well, it would have to be very narrowly drawn as it pertains to Syria. I wouldn`t want to rule it out, Chris. If we discovered, for example, that there was an active cell in Syria posing an imminent threat to the United States, that`s something where it would be appropriate for us to take action. But whether we can...

MATTHEWS: How do we stop them from beheading our people? They`re in Syria, beheading our people, ISIS is. How do you stop that if you don`t go into Syria itself where they`re beheading us?

SCHIFF: Well, you know, it`s very difficult, Chris, without having a major military force there, to be able to rescue those hostages or prevent other hostages from being taken. But at the same time, we have to ask ourselves, are we willing to have another major occupation of a Muslim country? And is that in the best long-term interests of the United States? I don`t think it is. And we shouldn`t be provoked by these acts, as horrific as they are, into doing things that are ultimately going to be counterproductive.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Garamendi, same question to you. Do we go into Syria and stop these beheadings using special forces and whatever units we have to?

GARAMENDI: Well, I think special forces, if they go in to do the rescue operation that ultimately failed, I think that`s appropriate. To go in and to work side by side with one of the Syrian groups, assuming we can even figure out which one we want to work with, no.

But I think there is something we can do in Syria, and that is find out where Mr. Baghdadi, the leader of this organization, is, and put in his back pocket a Hellfire missile. That`s a possibility that we ought to keep open and available to us.

I know we`re into another country. I know Mr. Assad is there and all that goes with that. But I think we have, as we have in Pakistan, the necessity of taking out these leaders, wherever they may be around the world. If it`s in Somalia or Pakistan or wherever, take them out in a very limited, limited way.

So this resolution that`s going to come up for a vote needs to be very, very carefully crafted. I don`t want to see renewed heavy-duty military operations, such as we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan. No way. But limited -- the real secret here or the real answer lies in making sure that we have a coalition. We have to make sure that the surrounding countries - - Iraq, Turkey, the Gulf states, Jordan and others -- are working together. They`re the ones that are ultimately going to have to carry this fight and occupy the ground, just as Mr. Schiff suggested a few moments ago. We`re not going to occupy that ground. Again, it`s up to them to occupy particularly Iraq.

MATTHEWS: It`s interesting that both of you gentlemen, both Democrats, both from California, believe that we should have a vote -- you should have a vote, a role in deciding this issue. U.S. Congressman Jack Kingston, who`s a lame duck, he`s a congressman -- a Republican from Georgia, he told "The New York Times today that neither his Democratic nor his Republican colleagues want a vote.

Quote, "A lot of people would like to stay on the sideline and say, Just bomb the place and tell us about it later. It`s an election year. A lot of Democrats don`t know how it would play in their party, and Republicans don`t want to change anything, like the path we`re on now. We can denounce it if it goes bad and praise it if it goes well. And what took him so long?"

So there you have a -- I think a somewhat cynical view, Congressman Schiff, by a Republican, saying -- and I don`t think there`s anything wrong with Congressman Kingston. It may be a well-founded view politically. But he`s basically saying, You guys make the decision in the White House, and we`ll decide whether to shoot at it or not.

SCHIFF: Well, look, Chris, I think there are a lot of people on both sides of the aisle that would be happy not to have to vote on this. But the reality is, this is quintessentially a part of our constitutional responsibility, and if we`re not willing to do it, we don`t really belong here.

So I think this is something that -- you know, as difficult as it is, as painful as it is, and as risky politically as it may be, this is something we need to do. And if we don`t, frankly, we in Congress have only ourselves to blame if Congress in the institutional scheme of things becomes even more diminished as an institution.

MATTHEWS: Well, Congressman Garamendi, take a look at this brand-new poll -- I want you to respond to this poll, NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll out tonight. It shows the country is overwhelmingly supportive of military action against ISIS. One reason might be the impact of those beheading videos. Nearly 6 in 10 Americans say they`ve seen a lot of news coverage about the executions of James Foley and Steven Sotloff. That`s more than any other news story of the last five years. In other words, the biggest news story of five years, according to NBC News and "The Wall Street Journal," is the beheadings.

As a result, 61 percent of the American people say taking military action against ISIS in Iraq and Syria is in the national interest. What exactly should that military action look like? Forty percent of Americans said -- that`s 2 in 5 -- say they would support only air strikes against the terror group. Another 34 percent say they would support air strikes, as well as American combat troops on the ground. So in total, at least, 74 percent, about three quarters, say they would support at least air strikes.

Your thinking about that, Congressman Garamendi.

GARAMENDI: I think that they have not fully considered all of the factors involved, the extraordinary cost of the Afghanistan war, the terrible outcome of the Iraq war.

We need to be very measured, very deliberate, and very, very careful, but we do need to vote. The law says we need to vote. The Constitution says we need to vote. We didn`t come here to play chicken. We came here to do our job, and that means we have to vote. So we got to be very careful as we construct a resolution that will authorize the president to carry on an appropriate level of military action.

I am not in any way going to vote to move back into Iraq with heavy- duty troops, as we have in the past. Air strikes, OK. We`ve got the advisers on the ground. That`s enough for me.

And realize that this solution here does not lie in American military presence in that area. We`ve done that. We did it for a decade. It didn`t work. We need to make sure that the countries surrounding this area -- they`re the ones that have the real risk here. We do have risks, no doubt about it, but the real risk lies in the countries around it. They need to step up. They need to put the troops on the ground.

The Iraq government needs to get its act together. That`s in process -- new prime minister, a new cabinet in place. And hopefully, they`ll reach out and try to heal the wounds of the divisions that Maliki put in over the last six or seven years.

So there`s work to be done. But we have our job to do. We cannot and should not duck this responsibility. And when we do this full debate, maybe the American public will have a better understanding of how this can have a good outcome, rather than an outcome and go down the path that we did with the first and the second Iraq war.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you so much, U.S. Congressmen Adam Schiff and John Garamendi, both of California.

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