CNN News From CNN - Transcript
CNN News From CNN - Transcript
4/14/2005
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BLITZER: Welcome back to NEWS FROM CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Let's get to the trouble surrounding the house majority leader Tom DeLay. The Republican strongman, known as "The Hammer," is beginning to take a pounding himself. Three separate rebukes in recent years by the House Ethics Committee, followed by suspicions of additional indiscretions, perhaps most important, a sudden sense of vulnerability.
Joining us now live from Capitol Hill, two guests, Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts, Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher of California.
Congressman, thank you very much for joining us.
And, Barney Frank, I'll start with you, no criminal wrongdoing, at least no accusations yet. What's wrong with what the house majority leader has done?
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, there were two things. First of all it has to do with a great abuse of power, particularly most recently with his pattern of trying to intimidate judges, even his fellow Republicans have backed away. As a matter of fact, yesterday he himself had to apologize for having said that judges have to answer what he did, but he's now calling on the judiciary to investigate because he doesn't like what 20 out 22 federal judges, including every United States Supreme Court, all nine of them, did in a particular case, the Schiavo case, and to have politicians threatening judges's tenure because they disagree with their particular situation in particular cases is a grave error.
Secondly, I'm not going to comment on the specifics of the ethics issues. What's troubling is that the Republicans to defend Mr. DeLay are weakening the ethics process. They now have a situation if you don't get one member of the other party, of your own party, to say yes, you've done something wrong, a complaint is automatically dismissed in 45 days. That's a great change from the current situation. In fact I think our ethics procedure is already too loose.
BLITZER: Dana Rohrabacher, let's go through both of those points. He did apologize yesterday for speaking he said inappropriately about judges. Let's go through that point first?
DANA ROHRABACHER ®, CALIFORNIA: OK, well first, let's just note, the fact that a conservative Republican is upset with the judges on the bench is no big deal. The fact is that we do have a legislative garnish and the executive branch and the judicial branch, and we are free to criticize one another. And it is not-hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
ROHRABACHER: It is not illegal in any way for that criticism to exist, and you asked Barney a question, he couldn't come up with anything illegal that our leader has done, and that's what happens. Tom DeLay is one of the most effective leaders we've had. We get all kinds of legislation through on taxes, and transportation and energy. The Democrat response is to attack us personally, and that's what's happened.
FRANK: I'm appalled-first of all, I didn't say anything illegal, but the notion that it's good enough to be the majority leader of the Congress of the United States because you didn't do anything illegal is silly. What he did with the judges wasn't illegal. It was offensive. It was abusive. He's himself apologized. And the fact is, and he didn't just criticize the judges, and by the way, you say conservative Republicans, and among the judges he's criticizing Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, William Rehnquist.
ROHRABACHER: He has every right to criticize judges, and the fact is it is not illegal. It is not illegal.
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: That's right, your standard is he hasn't broken the law. That's too low for a majority leader. What he's done is try to intimidate the judges. What he's done is threaten them. What he's done is to say that we won't have this independence. That's far worse than criticism.
BLITZER: Congressman Rohrabacher, what about the other issue that Barney Frank raises, sort of change in the rules of the game, he says, involving the House Ethics Committee, that you need at least one member of the other party, your own party, to allow issue to come forward.
ROHRABACHER: The reason we have the rules is because the Democrats have gone so far to the left, that in order to achieve anything, in order to obstruct the Republican agenda of lower taxes and a secure America, our energy programs, all these other bills we've passed. In order to stop them, they've got to attack us personally. I've seen this over and over again. Ronald Reagan came under personal attack. Newt Gingrich had 34 charges filed against him and it almost paralyzed him. In the end, 33 of them were just dismissed totally.
FRANK: Now that you've gotten this irrelevance, defend DeLay by talking about Reagan and Gingrich, the fact is-please don't interrupt, Dana-the three rebukes that Mr. DeLay got, and I haven't commented on this, but they were unanimous; Republicans voted for it, blaming left-wing Democrat. It was a conservative Republican from Colorado, Joel Hefley (ph) who was dumped as chairman of the ethics committee, who's angry himself at what they're doing to the ethics process. This is not some Democratic plot, this is the unanimous vote three times in the Ethics Committee.
ROHRABACHER: The Democrats have constantly abused --
FRANK: Well, what ...
ROHRABACHER: Hold on, you know what, I didn't interrupt you now.
FRANK: You did.
ROHRABACHER: The Democrats have abused this process over and over again, and all we're saying right now is that unless a charge is acted upon, and unless there's a majority vote, that we're not going to let the Democrats-hold on, we're not going to let the Democrats, then, abuse the process as they have. And this has happened time and time again, whether it's Newt, whether it's Ronald Reagan...
FRANK: OK, Dana, you want to get off DeLay and I understand that. But in first place, it wasn't just the Democrats, it was the Republicans on the committee. And it should be clear what happened was, they fired most of the Republicans who were on the committee. They got a much more compliant group of Republicans.
So first they fired the more independent Republicans in the committee, then they said only if one of the people we put on for this purpose comes away it would work. And the final thing that I would want to raise is this-and without getting into specifics, this Jack Abramoff who was a ...
BLITZER: Hold on. Before we get Jack Abramoff, let Dana Rohrabacher respond to the issue they fired the moderate independent- minded Republicans...
(CROSSTALK)
ROHRABACHER: Look, the public has to take a look at the arguments being presented and honestly try to determine whether the Democrats have abused this process in order to be part of an obstructionist agenda because they can't get their own agenda through. That's my position. I think anybody here with an honest look at it knows that's what the motive was.
FRANK: In other words, he will not comment on... ROHRABACHER: He's the...
FRANK: .. if I had the conservative chair of the Ethics Committee. And the fact is that Jack Abramoff has been a terrible abuser of Native Americans...
BLITZER: Well, let's hold off one second, Barney. Hold off. Stand back, stand back just a second. We want to explain to our viewers what you're talking about. Jack Abramoff not necessarily a household name. What you're suggesting is that he, a prominent lobbyist here in Washington was secretly-the allegation is funneling money to groups so that Tom DeLay could take junkets around the world.
FRANK: No, that's not my-his partner in this was a former DeLay aide and they were using DeLay's influence to terribly abuse the Native Americans and, in fact, I think (INAUDIBLE) him of substantial amounts of money. And what they're trying to do is prevent the Ethics Committee from looking into this.
ROHRABACHER: Yes, this is the abuse that I'm talking about, when we have these kind of charges made against people who can't defend themselves.
FRANK: Of course they can defend themselves!
ROHRABACHER: And let me note, every charge made against DeLay-he went on trips that lobbyists had something to do with. Every member of Congress goes on trips sponsored by foundations in which lobbyists, whether from Israel or whether they're from Qatar or whether they're from Germany, have something to do with selecting the members...
FRANK: Well, they don't...
ROHRABACHER: Barney, have you ever been one of those trips?
FRANK: Not by...
ROHRABACHER: Sure he has! They all have. But what happens is they want to make us look like criminals for doing exactly what's...
FRANK: Not criminals.
ROHRABACHER: ... for doing exactly what's standard process.
FRANK: Again, Dana seems to take refuge in the fact-I'm not a criminal, therefore I should be in the majority leader or whatever. The fact is, unanimously, the Republicans on the committee (INAUDIBLE) Mr. DeLay and they were fired for it. And what we're talking about now is not trips. I'm not concerned about the trips. I'm talking about a pattern of systematically defrauding Native Americans...
ROHRABACHER: That's baloney.
FRANK: ... and using them. ROHRABACHER: Total baloney.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Congressman Rohrabacher, what about the other issue that's raised, that he put his wife and daughter on the payroll of his political action committee to the tune of half a million dollars?
ROHRABACHER: Well, I-well, look, let me point it out. Today there was a newspaper account that Barbara Boxer has done exactly the same thing. My wife runs my campaign, and there are certain members in Congress, of course, who either aren't married or are millionaires who don't consider that as an option, but the fact is, just like traveling overseas, this is a standard operating procedure being presented to the public as if there's something wrong, something secret with it. It's basically-it's a personal attack to try to stop the Republican agenda because the left wing agenda is so far out there with the Democrats, they can't get anything done here.
BLITZER: I know both of you have to vote, so we'll end it right there. We'll continue this conversation down the road. A good debate between Dana Rohrabacher and Barney Frank. Thanks to both you of, Congressmen. And go ahead and vote right now.
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