MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript

Interview

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Joining us now for the interview is Congressman Barney Frank of
Massachusetts, the first person to make the decision to come out while
serving in the United States Congress.

Congressman Frank, thanks very much for being here. It`s nice to see
you.

REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Thank you, Rachel. I`m about
to have my 25th anniversary of my volunteering that I was gay to the
"Boston Globe." It`s Memorial Day of 1987.

MADDOW: Wow, 25 years. Twenty-five years ago, could you have
imagined a sitting U.S. president of either party coming out and saying
that he believe that you and other gay Americans should have the right to
get married?

FRANK: No, and I didn`t figure at that point that I would be one of
those who would be doing it within a couple months.

MADDOW: I actually wondered about that. I know that you have plans.
You`re going to be retiring. You`re not running for re-election.

But before you leave Congress, you and your partner, Jim, have
announced that you`re going to be married. You are going to be a married
member of the United States Congress, with a same-sex partner. I wondered
if today`s announcement changed the seating list for the ceremony.

FRANK: No, I admire the president. I deeply respect him. But I
don`t want my guests to have to go through the metal detector.

You know, the Secret Service does a great job of protecting ft. But
while they are protecting the president, they pretty much disrupt
everybody`s lives around them. So I want the wedding to be celebratory,
not militarized.

MADDOW: I hear you.

You know, on this issue of, I guess, the president`s personal views
versus what the president has pursued on policies, this has been a very
pro-gay rights administration. The president never before today had said
that he personally endorsed the idea of gay marriage rights. You`d said a
couple of weeks ago that you thought it was a problem that he hadn`t
personally said anything about it.

Why was it a problem and has he solved that problem now?

FRANK: Yes, he has. It was a problem, frankly, because of the
referenda. In terms of public policy, as you had pointed out, the
president had already taken the position that was relevant from policy.

Namely, by opposing DOMA, by saying that he would not carry out the
unconstitutional mandate that we not get the same benefits as anybody else.
There is no general federal marriage policy. So, again, in public
policy, he did just the right thing.

But as you know, we have several referenda coming. And there has
been some effort within the African-American community to kind of say --
oh, well, family stability is important. These people are trying to
undermine it. In the California referenda in 2008, people were quoting
Barack Obama`s opposition at that point to same-sex marriage, in literature
aimed at the black community.

We have a very important referendum coming up this year in the state
of Maryland, where the legislature got this, Governor O`Malley took the
lead, and same-sex marriage was approved. I was fearing that you would see
people who were trying not to allow this to go forward, invoking President
Obama in the referendum. Now they won`t be able to do that.

Plus, that`s it`s also important what the president says. And I
think with regard to Bill Clinton, it was important that he was saying 15
years ago, that he was supportive of gay rights, even if the Congress
wouldn`t g along.

And I do think there are two areas that Bill Clinton deserves credit
that he`s not always gotten -- using his executive power, because we
couldn`t deal with the congress at that time. He revoked a 40-year-old
policy that said that those of us who are gay or lesbian couldn`t get
security clearance. That was a serious problem for people, not just going
to work for the government, but working for businesses that worked for the
government. And he abolished that.

Secondly, and in terms of the international, he took the first step.
Janet Reno, at his direction, promulgated a (INAUDIBLE) if you were gay,
overseas, and you were being persecuted, you were eligible for asylum.
So, those were two very powerful things that were not just personal
expressions.

But beyond that, it is important that the president is a figure that
people respect and when the president speaks out, it moves -- we`re moving
in the right direction anyway. It moves us a little further.

MADDOW: In terms of that last point, about how it moves -- how it
moves the country for the president to have made a personal statement about
this, I can absolutely see your point on the negative side of him not
saying anything. That him being against gay rights could be used against
gay rights, particularly by other constituencies that might otherwise
support it.

Are there people who aren`t in favor of same-sex marriage rights now
who will be, because President Obama is? Will he attract anybody to the
position?

FRANK: No, that`s a very good point. As a matter of fact, that`s
why he won`t have any political impact, I believe, in terms of the
election, if your view on whether or not we have the right to marry helps
determine your vote in a significant way. If you were against it, you were
already against Barack Obama because of what he did the DOMA. If you were
for it, given what he`s done in other areas, you were for Barack Obama.

But it has an impact. First of all, there will be some people who
will be more emboldened to speak out now. You know, this is a society
where people influence each other. And when the president says that
there`ll be people, it probably won`t make any difference in Manhattan, Los
Angeles, Cambridge, Massachusetts, but in parts of the country where people
are still feeling a little intimidated, morally and culturally, having the
president on their side will be very helpful.

So these things don`t operate in a one-to-one fashion. And it isn`t
necessarily just about marriage. I think it is helpful. Again, we`re on
the move. He`s absolutely right about the generational issue.

And you know, some generational issues, people think one way at 25
and they may think differently at 50. In this situation, on LBGT rights,
every indication we have is that people aren`t prejudiced at 25 aren`t
going to become prejudiced later.

MADDOW: Congressman Barney Frank of Massachusetts -- thanks for
being here tonight. I know we`re lucky to have you tonight. Thank you.

FRANK: Thank you, Rachel.

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