Hardball - Transcript
MSNBC
SHOW: HARDBALL 21:00
September 22, 2004 Wednesday
HEADLINE: HARDBALL For September 22, 2004
BYLINE: Chris Matthews; Andrea Mitchell; Chris Jansing
GUESTS: Father Andrew Greeley; Richard Land; Jon Meacham
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: I think so. I think that it is very clear that John Kerry believes that we would not have been better off with Saddam Hussein removed, which is a remarkable statement. Also, he has set a date certain, which is not a time of victory, and cannot be in my view defined by time. And third of all, he seems to believe that if he were president, that there would be a number of our European friends who, quote, "haven't been asked."
Maybe I can take the last one first. We've asked, we've begged. We've...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You're smiling with confidence, Senator, so I am going to ask you to see if you can back that up. Do you think the million people watching this show, this show we're doing right now, do you think those people should decide this election on the basis of the war in Iraq? If they like the war in Iraq, they think it was a necessary policy decision to go to Iraq, overthrow Saddam Hussein, do what we have to do there, as opposed to those who think it was a bad decision. Should they vote on that issue or not?
MCCAIN: I think it is part of the major issue of the campaign, and that's the war on terrorism. Now, I'm not tying terrorists and al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein. OK? I'm not saying that. But I am saying that a war on terror is best led by President Bush. The war in Iraq has made America, the world and Iraq better off. Is it tough? Are we in a tough fight? Are we in a death struggle with the enemy? Will the next two months be critical in whether we're going to succeed or fail? Absolutely yes. Have mistakes been made? Yes.
But the necessity of winning, I believe, is overwhelming. And I think that President Bush is presenting a clear picture of the benefits of success and the consequences of failure.
MATTHEWS: Should a person who believes that the president was right to take our country into Iraq, overthrow the government there, begin to put up another government, a democratic government, should that person vote for President Bush?
MCCAIN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Should a person who believes that was a bad idea, it wasn't smart, that they took us into the quicksand. We're going to be stuck there for years, and people are going to hate us around the world. Should that person vote for John Kerry?
MCCAIN: Again, as part...
MATTHEWS: I want symmetry here.
MCCAIN: I don't know...
MATTHEWS: If you disagree completely with the president's policy, you think he was wrong, he wasn't wise to take us in there. Should you vote for Kerry?
MCCAIN: I think in both cases, the overriding issue is the war on terror. But the war in Iraq is an important component of it, because those who oppose the war in Iraq say it diverted our attention from the war on terror, et cetera. I don't see how you exactly separate the two.
MATTHEWS: How do you register your disapproval as an American of American policy toward Iraq? How do you register it?
MCCAIN: I think you vote against the president.
MATTHEWS: Last week, Senator Joe Biden said, quote, "The president has frequently described Iraq as the central front of the war on terror. Well, by that definition"-this is Senator Biden-"success in Iraq is a key standard by which to measure the war on terror. And by that measure, I think the war on terror is in trouble."
MCCAIN: I think the war on terror is in itself so far, knock on wood, a success, because we haven't suffered another attack. There may be one tomorrow. I pray God-I pray every night there is not going to be one. But we have succeeded. Any objective observer will tell you this country is safer than it was on September 11. Is it safe yet? No.
On the war in Iraq, I believe that we have great difficulties, but I believe we are going to prevail. And I believe we must prevail. And I believe that when we do, that the country, Iraq, and the world are better off with Saddam Hussein gone.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, you as a United States senator, got to vote on whether to authorize the president to take the action he did.
MCCAIN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Do you think the American people have a chance now to vote in this election, whether they thought it was a wise decision or not?
MCCAIN: Sure, they do. Sure, they do. And if in the eyes of the individual it is only the war on Iraq-to some people, unemployment is the major issue. Somebody who has lost their job, maybe outsourcing is a major issue. It depends on how it affects each individual American. There are some states where unemployment continues to be a serious issue.
But if you are-I believe that the future of our society and America and the free world rests on us winning the war on terror.
MATTHEWS: Right, but the president's decision to go to Iraq, most people would acknowledge, was the single distinguishing characteristic of this administration. Other presidents might have done it-might not have done it, and he went to Iraq, and that decision, should he be judged by the effectiveness of that that decision?
MCCAIN: To me, the central aspect of the presidency was when he stood in the rubble of the World Trade Center and put his arm around that hero and said, we're-the world is going to hear from us. And then we went to Afghanistan, where al Qaeda was, which was the right decision. And...
MATTHEWS: Well, by that definition, he should get 80 percent of the vote. Because everybody agrees with those decisions. But half the country disagrees with the war with Iraq. And shouldn't they register that by voting against him?
MCCAIN: If they believe that the war in Iraq is a larger question than the entire war on terror, then yes. But if they viewed the war on terror, of which this is a part of, which have not failed yet, Chris. We have not failed yet. There are certain things, the good things that have happened. Is it a tough struggle? Yes, it's tough. And we've made mistakes. Yes. But in every war, there's been mistakes.
And I don't mean to drag this out, but one of the greatest generals in our history was General Douglas MacArthur. He told Harry Truman, looked him in the eye and said, don't worry, the Chinese will never invade.
Mistakes are made in wars. Mistakes are made...
MATTHEWS: Right, he was fired.
MCCAIN: The key is to adjust.
MATTHEWS: But Douglas MacArthur was fired.
MCCAIN: He wasn't fired because of that. He was fired because he wanted to use nukes.
MATTHEWS: Well, because he crossed the Yalu. OK, let me-and (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Let me ask you this, do you think that the situation in Iraq is getting better or worse, right now?
MCCAIN: Right now at this moment, I think that it is in a serious situation, worse than it was a year ago, in many respects. There are some better things. For example, northern Iraq is rather quiet, and things are going pretty well there. The Sunni triangle and Fallujah being sanctuaries is an unacceptable situation. I think it's very, very tough.
MATTHEWS: Are we putting off the worst until after the election, by not going into Fallujah and all those difficult areas? You think there's a-you're an expert. You know what the military is up to. Do you think there's been an implicit decision to say, look, these are going to be bloody, horrible situations when we go into these places. Let's not do them before November 2.
MCCAIN: No. I don't think that that decides-drives that decision, because if we wait much longer, and wait too long, then-every day we wait they are getting stronger.
MATTHEWS: Well, why are we waiting?
MCCAIN: I think they've tried several other things, other methodologies and other avenues. But the general, the Marine general in charge there, General Conroy (ph), said in "The Washington Post," one, that he didn't think they needed to go in when they went in. But he said once they went in, they should never have pulled out.
MATTHEWS: Right, Fallujah.
MCCAIN: In Fallujah. And that was a mistake. But again, mistakes are made.
MATTHEWS: Right. And elections are held. And we have to judge the success of a policy. And I'm just-I think your point is that the president should be judged on the whole performance in this war on terrorism.
MCCAIN: Yes, and I'd also like to point out that John Kerry is saying that America and the world are not better-are not safer with Saddam Hussein's removal.
MATTHEWS: Oh, he's clear.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, let's get back to that. This is the first time-we've been on this show many times, you've been on-we're lucky to have you. For the first time, John Kerry is stalking out an anti-war position. He said, if there was no imminent threat-and there wasn't one-if there was no WMD-and there weren't any-if there was no connection to al Qaeda, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. He said it this week and I believe he's sticking to it.
We'll come back and talk about this new decision by the senator from Massachusetts to make this issue of the Iraq War a fundamental difference with the president.
We'll be right back with more on this, and also about the CBS mess. More on that, coming back with Senator John McCain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL with Senator John McCain. You know a lot of people in the media and you're in politics, Senator. What's the impact of the Dan Rather mess?
MCCAIN: I don't think it is huge. Obviously, it has damaged Dan Rather and all of us are fallible. And he apologized. I think we should move on. I think the most important thing about this is, we've got to stop refighting the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was over 30 years ago. We are not going to be able to erase a single name on the Vietnam War memorial. And we should be talking about Iraq, as you and I were talking about earlier in the program.
MATTHEWS: So even if you had known-even though the CBS report had turn out to be true, this is what I wondered about, I want your view on it, even if it turned out to be true that the president had not got a physical he was supposed to have 30-some years ago, would that have mattered to anybody's vote?
MCCAIN: It shouldn't have. The president of the United States served honorably in the National Guard. John Kerry served honorably in the United States Navy. We have to move on. And for us to reopen all those wounds, I think, is a very, very damaging thing to older guys like me.
MATTHEWS: You're a Republican from the west, from Arizona. You must have that sort of westerner's view of the East Coast establishment media. Do you think this feeds into that idea that we have a case where a top producer for "60 Minutes" calls up Joe Lockhart and says, will you call up this guy and help us get the piece?
MCCAIN: You just don't understand those kinds of things because, one-somebody said about Napoleon after he had done something really idiotic, he said, worse than a crime, it is a mistake. I don't get it.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about this campaign. Predict the results.
MCCAIN: Bush by a sizable majority.
MATTHEWS: Four or eight?
MCCAIN: Pardon me?
MATTHEWS: Four percent or 8 percent?
MCCAIN: I think somewhere between the two. I think-the reason why I don't think we can be definitive, I think we've still got to have three debates. I believe that three debates won the election for George W. Bush. I think Americans saw that here was a guy who really believed what he said against a guy who they really showed up as three different people in three different debates.
MATTHEWS: Who is your (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Kerry or Gore?
MCCAIN: I think Kerry. The reason why is because Kerry has always surprised people. Kerry...
MATTHEWS: You know him. You know him better than I know him.
MCCAIN: And you've had Bill Weld on the show. Bill Weld, the governor of Massachusetts who is a very articulate, attractive guy. And Kerry beat him in debates. If I were the Bush campaign, I would be raising the expectation bar for John Kerry as high as I could...
MATTHEWS: God, he's smart.
MCCAIN: He has a record of great debate performance.
MATTHEWS: How much does personality matter here? Is it Bush's charm that makes him difficult to beat because even if he isn't the expert on something, he seems to have that facility to sort of win.
MCCAIN: I'm not sure it is his charm as much as it is the belief that this guy really believes what he says. And when he says it, I can take it to the bank. And he's my leader. I may disagree or agree with him, but I sure know where he stands. I think that's the impression that he gave Americans in his debate with Gore and I think that's what he is doing on the stump where he's by the way far more relaxed and I think doing pretty good.
MATTHEWS: What do you think, you or Giuliani in 2008? What do you figure? Someone has to take on Hillary so I'm wondering who it's going to be. It's got to be you, right? You can do it.
MCCAIN: But I think that Rudy Giuliani is great. I think Mitt Romney is great. I have at least 10 or 12 colleagues...
MATTHEWS: Great vice presidents.
They're all great. You're playing that old pyramid play.
MCCAIN: Listen, we're going to change the constitution and it will be the Terminator.
MATTHEWS: Oh, god. I think Bill Clinton after that heart stop, maybe he can come back. Anything is possible in this world. Comeback Kid.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
When we come back, I'll ask Senator McCain what President Bush and Senator Kerry have to do to win the presidential debates next week.
And don't forget, you can keep up with the presidential race on Hardblogger, our election blog web site. Just go to hardball.msnbc.com.
And on Friday, 7:00 Eastern, join us for HARDBALL: The Horserace. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: The first of three debates between President Bush and Senator John Kerry is scheduled for next Thursday in Coral Gables, Florida.
And I asked Senator John McCain about the challenges facing both candidates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Is Kerry in trouble in this election because of what's perceived to be a lack of clarity, a wobble?
MCCAIN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: What can he do about it?
MCCAIN: I think he started out by making a definitive statement on Iraq. That's the first we have heard. And that's probably a step in the right direction.
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about next week's debate. Who has got the skill to win?
MCCAIN: If I were the president of the United States, I would always be presidential, and, as he was in his debates in 2000. What you see is what you get with President Bush, a man who believes in what he says and says what he believes.
In John Kerry's case, I would keep my answers short and I do whatever it is that he did when he defeated Governor Weld, who was running against him in the state of Massachusetts for the Senate. And neither, neither, should underestimate the abilities of the other.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the debate last time.
President Bush defeated Al Gore the last debate, most people think. Do you agree with that?
MCCAIN: Yes, without a doubt.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: How did he beat him?
MCCAIN: Because he projected an image of a person who had an inner sense of his purpose and principles and how he would behave as president of the United States. I believe that Al Gore showed up as three different people in three different debates.
MATTHEWS: Will John Kerry do the same or will he be consistent?
MCCAIN: I don't know. I don't know. I think he obviously will learn from having observed the Gore-Bush debates.
But I think that President Bush still has and has developed even more this ability to project an image to the American people of a person who shares deep convictions, who holds deep convictions.
MATTHEWS: How many points are in play when you go into a debate? Can Kerry pick up his losses?
MCCAIN: I don't know the answer to that. It would have to be, I think, some very large gaffe along lines of President Ford talking about the people of Poland. But both of them are good. But both of them are skilled. So I wouldn't expect any major mistakes.
MATTHEWS: But do you think that the president could put it away with debates?
MCCAIN: Yes. Yes, I do. I think he has got to hold his lead.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: In other words, he's ahead now. If he wins the debates, he's insurmountable in his lead.
MCCAIN: Yes, but he can't play-he can't sit on a lead. In other words, I think that would be his worst mistake, to say, I have a got a six-point lead, so I am not going to make any mistakes. I think he has got to be himself. And sometimes his persona is pretty aggressive, in other words, very forceful.
MATTHEWS: So he can't win it with charm?
MCCAIN: I think he wins it the same way he won in the year 2000. You can take what I say to the bank, American people, and you can believe that I will do exactly what I told you that I am going to do.
MATTHEWS: What's the secret to winning a debate? Do you wait for the over guy to go over the top and then you nail him? That's what Reagan did with Carter. It's what Bentsen did with Dan Quayle. The other guy goes after you and you say, wait a minute.
MCCAIN: Yes, but, you know, Chris, I am the loser, so I'm probably the wrong guy to ask, but I think people have gotten a little more sophisticated than that.
They can tell if your handlers gave you a line to throw in. I don't think that that quite works. I think, nowadays, if you had the Bentsen line, I knew Jack Kennedy I don't think that would work nearly as well as it did back then. I think people are a little more sophisticated.
MATTHEWS: They figure you had that in the bag the whole time.
MCCAIN: People are more sophisticated.
I think that if they believe that it's unscripted moment, that that can probably have an effect, but if it was something, your guy said, now, remember, as soon as the issue of weapons of mass destruction come up, say-you know, I don't think that works.
MATTHEWS: How did Dick Cheney beat Joe Lieberman last time around?
MCCAIN: Joe was too nice. Joe was too nice. Joe sort of took it as kind of congenial, convivial encounter, when Joe should have gone for the jugular, which is not Joe Lieberman's nature. He is one of the nicest men I have ever known.
MATTHEWS: Will John Edwards go for the jugular against Cheney this time?
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: Yes. But, see, I think that Edwards has a bit of the...
MATTHEWS: The jugular's name, by the way, is Halliburton.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: I think he is going to go in that direction. What do you think?
MCCAIN: I think Edwards may have a little expectation issue here. People are going to expect a lot of a very accomplished and talented trial lawyer, whereas the expectations level for the vice president is going to be much lower. All this stuff is based on expectations.
MATTHEWS: Is this going to be the mongoose and cobra? Dick Cheney is the mongoose. When the cobra attacks him, the mongoose always wins?
MCCAIN: I don't know, but I think both of them are very smart and recognize both their strengths and their weaknesses and will attempt to emphasize their strengths.
MATTHEWS: What happens if we come out of the debates next week and it's perceived as a tie? Both men did well. That's good for the president, right?
MCCAIN: Sure, because he is in the lead now. He has a very solid base on the issues that will define the election.
The success of the New York convention was that we framed the issue, the war on terror, not unemployment, not outsourcing, not health care, on the war on terror and all the issues associated with it. That's where Bush's greatest strengths are. And because of his performance and others, it strengthened the view of the American people in his leadership.
MATTHEWS: So the strength of the president-as you see it, the president's strength is, don't judge me by one theater. Don't judge me by Iraq. Judge me by the whole piece starting 9/11.
MCCAIN: Exactly. And judge me on my steadfast commitment to see this thing through for as long as it takes.
MATTHEWS: Is this campaign about character or policy?
MCCAIN: Character always enters into it.
I think that it's clear we all know that Kerry has hurt himself by not taking a specific stance on specific issues. The president takes specific positions, and you know where he is coming from. That gives some people comfort, whether they agree with him or not.
MATTHEWS: So you are voting for Bush?
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Senator John McCain.
MCCAIN: Thanks, Chris.