NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript

Interview

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MR. GREGORY: Joining me, Senator John Thune, Republican of South Dakota, and Senator Claire McCaskill, Democrat of Missouri.

Welcome, both of you, to MEET THE PRESS. Well, this is really where the action is right now, it's in the Senate. Senator Thune, as a Republican here, somebody who's reportedly in play, what has to be in this agreement to get you to yes?

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): Well, I think a couple things, David. First, no taxes; spending reductions at least equal to the amount that the debt limit would be increased by dollar for dollar; and I think a pathway to get a result on entitlement reform. Those are the elements that I think a lot of Republicans are going to be looking for in order to support a final bill.

MR. GREGORY: But you, you heard David Plouffe a minute ago that McConnell is saying there's no tax increases in this deal, and that's true. But there is still, again, another committee that's going to look at making the hard decisions about entitlements and tax reform; and the president, you know, is going to look in that committee for tax increases to be part of that approach.

SEN. THUNE: Well, I, I think there will be some who want to see taxes as part of the approach. I certainly don't, and I don't think most Republicans do. And I think we believe that if tax reform is a part of that discussion of the permanent committee, and it certainly can be, it ought to be with an eye toward broadening the base, lowering rates and, and getting the economy growing again. Tax reform can be a very useful tool in terms of economic growth, but I don't think tax increases are certainly on, on the agenda of any Republican in the House or the Senate.

MR. GREGORY: Can you vote for what's taking shape right now as you know about it?

SEN. THUNE: Well, it's hard to say because we haven't seen the details.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

SEN. THUNE: I don't like the way--where this is headed. I'm not a big fan of the joint committee. But remember, this is probably going to be as good of an outcome as we can get, and most of us are going to have to accept things that we don't like in the final product.

MR. GREGORY: Senator McCaskill, you were in your office yesterday. We have pictures of you on the phone talking to constituents. And you sent a tweet out in the day that caught my eye. "Just spent a couple of hours answering the phones in my office. Dominant message: Don't cut Social Security or Medicare, and compromise." And yet, the big fight we know right now is over the enforcement mechanism, again, more Washington talk. What it means is you cut a certain amount up front to raise the debt ceiling, and then there's a second stage of cuts that come; and there is this committee that tries to agree on those cuts. And if you don't do it over this 10-year span, something forces Congress' hand. So how do you not put Social Security benefits or Medicare benefits into that potential enforcement mechanism when they're what are driving the debt?

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL (D-MO): Well, I think you have to have a lot of faith that the American people are going to continue to weigh in. And, and here's the bottom line, this fight has not been about nothing. This hasn't just been political theater. There's a philosophical difference here on the Hill between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. And it's pretty simple: They have voted to keep giving taxpayer checks to big oil while they voted to convert the Medicare system to vouchers. Now, that doesn't compute for us. How can you be more willing to push money, public money, to the most profitable corporations in the history of the world at the same time you're willing to dismantle Medicare? So that's really the fight here. So if they're not willing to look at--and, you know, John and I agree that we can do tax reform and--but we can generate some revenues there by leveling the playing field, by lowering tax rates for businesses and individuals, but let's get away from the situation where the people who have power in Washington don't have to pay any taxes.

MR. GREGORY: But, Senator, what's really ludicrous to the American people, even when the American people don't always speak with one voice on this matter, is that Washington is not really dealing with what really drives the debt, that's entitlement spending, it's been going on this way and was a ticking time bomb since the '60s, and Democrats--like you were saying, "Hey, you--we can't deal with Social Security and Medicare." Republicans say, you know, sign tax pledges, that "I'm not going to raise taxes; well, we can't deal with revenues." I mean this is what's ludicrous to the American people. And even here, if we have a deal, we're going to solve a political problem but not the underlying fiscal problem, which is what creates our debt, Senator, no?

SEN. THUNE: Well, I think absolutely what drives government spending more than anything else is basically three programs--Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. You cannot fix this mess in the long term absent addressing those. And what the Democrats have proposed--and, and most have talked about tax increases being part of this as a "balanced approach," but you've got essentially trying to use a balanced approach to one side of the problem. The problem is we spend too much. We have got to rein in these spending programs that are going to drive us over the cliff if we don't do it. That entails entitlement reform. that's got to be part of this debate and part of the solution.

MR. GREGORY: So, so what enforcement mechanism has to be in the final deal for you to find it acceptable?

SEN. THUNE: Well, I think some of the things that they're talking about right now--I mean, frankly, the, the--in the Boehner bill, of course, it was the debt limit increase, you didn't get another debt limit increase...

MR. GREGORY: Right.

SEN. THUNE: ...until you got a result in entitlement reform. But there's--now there's a discussion about across-the-board spending reductions. I think that makes sense. I think that puts pressure on both sides to do the hard things in order to get a result.

MR. GREGORY: Could you live with that?

SEN. McCASKILL: Well, I think we have to make sure that there is Defense spending in there because we got to have something to make the Republicans begin to look at a more, at a more balanced approach. And here's the thing, no one...

MR. GREGORY: Well, shouldn't Medicare be in there, too, to make sure we have Democrats looking at a balanced approach?

SEN. McCASKILL: I am--absolutely. I've been one of the Democrats saying that we have to look at entitlement reform. But, David, there's a big difference between telling Warren Buffett we're not going to buy his prescription drugs anymore and converting it to a voucher program. There are things we can do with both Social Security and Medicare that will preserve them, protect them, protect the beneficiaries, protect the benefits without gutting them. And that's really the case. If we have a balanced approach, we will preserve those programs as we know them...

MR. GREGORY: Right.

SEN. McCASKILL: ...and will be able to get it on long-term debt structure. Both of them have to be on the table. We can't keep going down a road where they want to keep pushing more public money to big oil but don't want to address the other issues.

MR. GREGORY: Senator Thune, September 29, 2008, was an important debate, an important day. That was the TARP bailout of the banks. That compromised legislation was voted down by lawmakers, and on that day the Dow plunged 778 points. What is your message to, particularly, your Republican colleagues in the House about this debt deadline and the prospect of voting down a compromise?

SEN. THUNE: I think that default isn't an option. We need to solve this. We need to do it in a way that is consistent with solving the problem, which isn't just the debt limit increase, it is the debt. We have to start making a dent in that, which is why I think Republicans in the House and the Senate have insisted upon dollar-for-dollar reduction in spending to go with an increase in the debt limit, and, and a pathway to get entitlement reform. Those are the things, the elements, I think, that are going to have to be in a plan to pass the House and the Senate, David.

MR. GREGORY: My colleague Brian Williams has a special tonight on "Dateline," "Taking the Hill," inside the workings of Congress in the middle of this debt drama. And he spoke with Majority Leader Reid about really that, that view so many Americans have right now.

(Videotape, "Taking the Hill: Inside Congress")

MR. BRIAN WILLIAMS: The American people seem to be saying to ladies and gentlemen like you, "You can't keep doing this, something has to change. This place seems so irretrievably broken."

SEN. HARRY REID: We're going through a very difficult time, and I understand why people are upset. We have to work through it. We need to come together. Legislations aren't a compromise. My program that I've suggested that I think goes a long way toward the problems this country faces with reducing the debt by almost $3 trillion, it sets up an idea of where we can, even before that's over, do some of the grand bargain that we need. But we need, we need to get beyond this. We can't have our credit rating crash. It would, in effect, be a tax increase for everybody out there.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: For somebody who opposes tax increases, do you agree with that? That ultimately if we see a credit rating slip, the prospect of default, it leads to something akin to tax increases?

SEN. THUNE: Well, I don't think we're--I don't--we don't know what the rating agencies, agencies are going to do. But I know this: The Republican approach to solving this is to cutting government and growing the economy, and we believe those two are connected. The Democrat approach to this is, is--would continue to grow government. And that's why--I think Claire's right--I mean this is a debate, David, a broader philosophical debate about the size, the role, the scope of the government in this country. And Republicans came here after the last election with a mandate from the American people, not to make government larger, but to make government smaller and more responsive and more accountable and more efficient.

MR. GREGORY: Quick question about 2012. You know, we've now seen, Senator McCaskill, Washington going to the brink on shutting the government down. Washington now again going to the brink over something more catastrophic, which is a default on our debt. The voters are going to speak next year. You're up for re-election. What's the message they're going to send?

SEN. McCASKILL: Well, I think--I hope that more Americans realize that what we have to have is more volume from the moderate middle. We have a lot of volume around Washington from the two extremes. The talking heads, the cable TV, the people who are most agitated are the people that are most divided. We need those people who want compromise. We want those people who want a balanced approach. All of us agree on cutting spending. This isn't a D or R deal. We are at the table with significant spending cuts. What we need now are people in this country that want to say, "It's not about the tea party, and it's not about the far left. It is about compromise." That's when our country shines so brightly.

MR. GREGORY: So, Senator Thune, are you still thinking about running for president?

SEN. THUNE: I'm not. I made that decision, I'm comfortable with it.

MR. GREGORY: So no--in a Shermanesque statement, you're not running.

SEN. THUNE: I am not running.

MR. GREGORY: Would you consider the vice presidency?

SEN. THUNE: I don't think you rule any options out in politics, David. Obviously, when you're in this you want to serve your country and put your skill set to their--to its highest and best use. And, you know, I'm not going to rule anything out. But I'm certainly focused today on what we're doing in the United States Senate, which today is trying to get a, a deal here that will avert a crisis for our country.

MR. GREGORY: All right, we'll be watching. Thank you both very much.

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