MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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JASON ALTMIRE (D), PENNSYLVANIA: I don"t. I represent middle America. You know Pennsylvania well, Chris. And if you look at the results in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin--that"s middle America. That"s the industrial Midwest. And we didn"t fare so well last Tuesday. And I do think it"s time for a change in direction. If you gauge effectiveness by a willingness to push forward legislation that"s not popular with the American people and have literally multiple dozens of members cast politically suicidal votes, then yes, Speaker Pelosi was effective. But I don"t think that"s the direction we want to keep going.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Clyburn, your view? I mean, Congressman Cummings!

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: I"m sorry! Clyburn"s running for whip...

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: That"s quite a compliment, by the way.

MATTHEWS: Yes, I know it is. It ought to be. He"s running for whip, as well, to keep his seat. Let me ask you about the question of the Speaker first. The Speaker--should she be the leader of the Democratic Party in the next Congress or should she step aside?

CUMMINGS: I think that she should remain. Speaker Pelosi, I think, has done an outstanding job. And I think, basically, what has happened is that you"ve had folks all over the country demonizing her. But let me--let"s be frank. There is no one that I know of that has the passion and compassion of a Nancy Pelosi.

And keep in mind that there were 49 districts that McCain had already

had won in, in the last election. So I mean, come on. She"s taken on monumental tasks with boldness and clarity. Health care reform--nobody was able to do that in 60 years, and there"s no way that we could have accomplished that, by the way, without Nancy Pelosi.

Here in Maryland, Chris, we ran on the health care bill. We talked about it. We talked about saving lives. And all of our members won handily, except one, one of our new members, who was in a McCain district.

MATTHEWS: OK, let"s take a look at the fight over the weekend because we"re going to have the real James Clyburn coming up here on this--we didn"t have him on the show tonight. We got to settle for you, Mr. Cummings. But let"s take a look here at Cantor. He"s one of the top Republicans. He"s from Virginia. He"s on Fox News on Sunday, and then Jim Clyburn, the Democratic whip. He"s on "MORNING JOE" this morning. Let"s listen to both these gentlemen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), MINORITY WHIP: If Democratic members in the House elect Nancy Pelosi as their leader, it"s almost as if they just didn"t get the message from voters this election.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC), MAJORITY WHIP: This had nothing to do with Nancy Pelosi"s leadership. It had everything to do with an economy that was close to collapse. It has everything to do with an environment that we found ourselves in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, let me read you the "New York Times" editorial from this morning. I thi8nk it"s pretty tough. "What Democrats need is what Ms. Pelosi has been unable to provide, a clear and convincing voice to help Americans understand that Democratic policies are not bankrupting the country, advancing socialism or destroying freedom. If Ms. Pelosi had been a more persuasive communicator, she could have batted away the ludicrous caricature of her painted by Republicans across the country as some kind of fur-headed commissar jamming her diktats down the public"s throat.."

Let me go back to Congressman Altmire. I know Pennsylvania and I know what happened up there. And I looked at all the interesting members of Congress who I happen to like, like Murphy and Carney and Kanjorski, and all these guys went down the drain up there. And I want you to talk about what role--and I saw the ads, Mr. Cummings, over the weekend up there in Philly a couple of weekends. I was up for my daughter"s parents" weekend. I got to tell you, those ads blamed members--people running for Congress, who weren"t event members of Congress, Democrats, for Pelosi. They were using her as a battering ram against these guys.

So what Altmire"s talking about here is the reality on the ground in Pennsylvania. Explain to me, as a fellow who"s been around talking to voters now for months and years, what do they think of Pelosi? What"s the truth about Pelosi? Is it the same thing?

CUMMINGS: You asking me, Chris?

MATTHEWS: I want to go to Mr. Altmire first. I"m talking about the bad news here for the Dems.

ALTMIRE: Yes, Chris, you hit the nail right on the head. She became the symbol of what the American people were uncomfortable with, a big government agenda, a big spending agenda. I don"t question where Speaker Pelosi"s heart is. I don"t question her passion on the issues. What I question is whether the future of the Democratic Party is well served with her continuing as leader. And I know in my region of the country, in the one district that I"ve been elected to represent, her views are inconsistent with the views of my district. It"s as simple as that.

MATTHEWS: What view is different between you and her? Give me the biggest difference between you and her, Congressman Altmire, on substance.

ALTMIRE: What she pursued with regard to cap-and-trade in western Pennsylvania. That"s not good policy. I voted against the health care bill because I didn"t think that was the right direction to go.

MATTHEWS: OK.

ALTMIRE: And if you look at the region in eastern Ohio and in West Virginia, in northwestern Pennsylvania, we lost Democratic members that have constituencies very similar to mine. I survived a very close race, but a lot of my neighbors in Congress got literally wiped out because of the agenda that she pursued.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Cummings, your view of this? Because we"re looking at reality on the ground. And you saw the TV ads, I"m sure.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

MATTHEWS: They ran against--as if she was, I don"t know, Bella Abzug, somebody--another one of these characters that come up (INAUDIBLE) They always come up with one, the Republicans, someone in the Democratic Party that they use as the worst case scenario for whosever running.

CUMMINGS: Yes. I think that, basically, again, you nailed it, Chris. I think they picked out Ms. Pelosi and made her the person that they wanted to use to symbolize exactly a lot of the things that the Republicans did not want. Keep in mind that Mr. Foley, Congressman Foley lost a few years ago, and he was the leader, the Speaker. And so I think we"re going to have those--I mean, those things are going to happen. They"re going to got to pick somebody to do that with.

Now, I think no matter who had been head of the Democratic Party in the House, I think they probably would have suffered the same things. It was Jim Clyburn, I think, said it right. I mean, we"re dealing in a difficult situation. We"ve got a jobs problem that this president has been trying to address, but with phenomenal opposition by--from the Republicans.

MATTHEWS: OK...

CUMMINGS: And so we"ve had a lot to deal with. And I think Nancy Pelosi has done an outstanding job, and she will be the leader.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you an intellectual question, but it gets really political. Mr. Altmire first, then Mr. Cummings. Is it better for a party, either party, to have a leader who"s from a safe district, like--well, Tip O"Neill, in the old days, Cambridge, Massachusetts--I think he had a communist run against him once. That was the only opponent he ever faced up there in his later years--or a Chuck Schumer or somebody from a safe district like Pelosi"s, or is it better to have somebody who has to fight like hell to get reelected every six years, like Harry Reid in the Senate?

Do you want somebody from a tough district or someone from a safe district? Because if you"re from a safe district, you know the problem, which is they are too far over. If it"s from a tricky district, they got to keep playing games with Hispanic votes and every trick in the world to save their seat. That"s just my way of putting it, but you have to play a lot of games to hold onto some of these seats. Your thoughts, Mr. Altmire.

ALTMIRE: It"s...

MATTHEWS: Should it be better to be a swing seat or a safe seat?

ALTMIRE: It depends on what you...

MATTHEWS: Because you"re knocking Nancy Pelosi because she"s on the left representing well, I think you"d agree, San Francisco. But you"d say that"s not representing western Pennsylvania. San Francisco is uniquely liberal, like Cambridge, Massachusetts, or parts of New York City. But if you have a leader from them, they will represent their areas, and then you will have a poster child, if you will, or woman or man, for what the voters love to go against from the middle part of the country. Your thoughts.

ALTMIRE: Chris, you"ve outlined exactly the decision the Democratic Party needs to make. Do they want to continue to be the loyal opposition, fighting for a left-of-center ideology that is relevant only in a few areas of the country, or do they want to continue to try to be a national party, a party that can win in the deep South and in the industrial Midwest, places where the party got crushed? I would suggest you have to have a leader who understands the issues that are relative across the entire country, not just along the coasts.

MATTHEWS: OK, who are you for in--who are you for in the leadership race for--let"s get this down right now, Mr. Altmire, Steny Hoyer, perhaps, who"s going to run again--looks like he"s running against Jim Clyburn for whip, the number two position after Pelosi? Who are you for?

ALTMIRE: I support Steny Hoyer.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Cummings, another tough question for you. Do you (INAUDIBLE) do you support Mr. Clyburn or (INAUDIBLE)

CUMMINGS: I"m for both of them.

MATTHEWS: ... or do you...

CUMMINGS: I am for both of them. I think that we"re going to end up with a deal where they"re both in leadership. Both of them bring phenomenal skills to the plate, and we need both of them. And I think we"ll find that happening.

MATTHEWS: Well, who should be whip, number two?

CUMMINGS: I"m not--I"m not going to go into that. But I can tell you...

MATTHEWS: Oh, I love it!

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: I love it!

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: In Philly, they call this "middling" a guy, forcing you to choose between geography and the Black Caucus. I can really hit you with this one.

CUMMINGS: When all the dust settles, both of them will be at the table. And I applaud that. I think we need both of them.

MATTHEWS: Well, Mr. Cummings, I appreciate fully your situation being from Maryland and being a member of the caucus. Thank you, sir. I think this fight should be interesting, if there is one. Thank you, gentlemen. I think, Mr. Altmire, you are a courageous fellow for saying what you do. And I do think that Pelosi was a problem in Pennsylvania. I think she"s a problem in that middle part of the country. Part of it"s looks, style, manner, ideology. Parts of it"s geography. Part of it"s--who knows, could be gender, I don"t know. But I think there"s something that the Republicans love to run against in that part of the country. And I know you have to face the fire for it. Thank you, sir, for joining us.

ALTMIRE: Thank you.

CUMMINGS: Thank you, Chris.

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