CNN Crossfire - Transcript

HEADLINE: Iraq Out of Control?

GUESTS: Eleanor Holmes Norton, Tom Davis

BYLINE: Wolf Blitzer, Tucker Carlson, Paul Begala

HIGHLIGHT:

Fighting and casualties mount in Iraq, as criticism continues from the campaign trail. What will Condoleezza Rice say about the Bush administration's fight against terrorism before 9/11?

BODY:
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

BEGALA: Congressman Davis, I do think that Tucker makes a good point that Senator Kerry needs to put out his alternate strategy for Iraq. I actually think he's done a much better job than Tucker gives him credit for. That shouldn't surprise you.

REP. TOM DAVIS ®, VIRGINIA: I'm with Tucker on that one.

BEGALA: I can imagine.

But our president, however, first and foremost, as the commander in chief...

DAVIS: Right. Right.

BEGALA: ... needs to tell us what his strategy is.

Here's 11 months ago. Here's a photograph of our president. He went on the USS Lincoln, stood under a banner that his White House made that said "Mission Accomplished." Now, you see on the other side of the screen is the reality in Fallujah this week, devastation, destruction. Congresswoman Norton called it chaos. Was it wise for the president then to have declared mission accomplished and was he misleading us when he did?

DAVIS: Well, the mission of removing Saddam Hussein who had murdered over 300,000 of his people, men, women, children, without trial, he's gone. That's no longer happening. Now, the aftermath is still going on. It's going to be with us for a while. I don't think anybody ever pretended otherwise.

And as we approach this deadline...

BEGALA: But when he says mission accomplished, 498 Americans...

DAVIS: Saddam is gone.

BEGALA: ... have been killed; 498 Americans have been killed since that day he stood on that aircraft carrier, killed in Iraq. That was misleading for him to say mission accomplished, wasn't it?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He didn't say, Saddam is gone. That would have been

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: Saddam was gone.

BEGALA: It said mission accomplished. That was false and misleading, wasn't it?

DAVIS: Well, I don't think it was false and misleading.

But I do think that removing Saddam Hussein was the major part of this mission and that the country is in better shape today than it was under Saddam Hussein.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Now, Delegate Norton, you just pointed out that Iraq is now in chaos. But you said that in fact the 30-year totalitarian rule of Saddam Hussein is not responsible. Religious extremism is not responsible.

NORTON: I said no such thing.

CARLSON: You said, the United States government is responsible for that chaos.

NORTON: I said we're responsible for the chaos. And the reason we're responsible for the chaos is, we have a campaign strategy. We don't have an exit strategy for getting out of there.

(CROSSTALK)

NORTON: And, therefore, we're getting out of there any way we can. And because we had no plan for how to come in and then how to get out, we have to take responsibility for what's happening there now. Look, George Bush, take responsibility. It's your invasion.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: So I'm just-just to make sure I have this right, because you're saying something that seems to be pretty radical, that when American voters watch on their televisions today mobs of black- clad Shia running through the streets shooting Americans, we can know that Delegate Norton thinks that America is responsible for that.

NORTON: They should hold their president responsible for the fact that there was no plan to keep that from happening.

CARLSON: Are you sure you want to say that?

NORTON: I do and I just said it.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: OK.

BEGALA: Congressman Davis, Ms. Norton just said that the June 30 deadline for transferring sovereignty that the president has set is perhaps dealing more with politics than the realities on the ground. The president was asked about that this week. And here's what the president said about transferring sovereignty over to Iraqis on June 30. Here's the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The United Nations is over there now. The United Nations representative is there now to work on the-on to whom we transfer sovereignty. In other words, it's one thing to decide it's a transfer. We're now in the process of deciding what the entity will look like to whom we will transfer sovereignty. But, no, the date remains firm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: What the hell is he talking about?

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: This is a man without a clue and without a plan, isn't it?

DAVIS: Well, I think the June 30 date wasn't just set by us. The Iraqis would like to put an Iraqi face on this, too.

BEGALA: So, but what is his plan? What was he saying? That was gibberish.

(LAUGHTER)

DAVIS: I think what's he saying is...

(APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: With the Governing Council, you just can't hand it over. We have to decide who's going to be in charge. And we've got the U.N. involved, exactly what John Kerry said earlier in his interviews that he wanted to happen, wanted the U.N. on the ground involved in this. They're there negotiating exactly who within that council we're going to be handing it over to, who is going to be in charge, and what the makeup of that government's going to be until you have elections.

BEGALA: All right, Congressman Davis, Congresswoman Norton, keep your seats just a second.

We're going to come back in just a minute. And when we do, we'll talk about this topic. Condoleezza Rice of course tomorrow will be under oath before the 9/11 Commission, perhaps seeking to rebut the testimony of the president's former top terrorism adviser Richard Clarke. What will she say? What should she say? And what will Americans say afterwards? We'll ask our two Congress members that next.

And then right after the break, though, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest for us on where the battle lines are being drawn in Iraq.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

Coming up at the top of the hour, battles on many fronts in Iraq. We'll show you where the U.S. troops are engaging Iraqi insurgents and who has the upper hand right now. Is it time for the U.S. to at least consider pulling out of Iraq? A debate between two U.S. congressmen, Dennis Kucinich and Mark Foley. That's coming up.

And all eyes on Condoleezza Rice. On the eve of her testimony, how will the 9/11 Commission hold her accountable? I'll speak with a commission member, former Illinois Governor James Thompson.

Those stories, much more only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."

Now back to CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice testifies before the 9/11 Commission tomorrow morning. You can see it live here on CNN at 9:00 Eastern.

Here to talk what she might say, what she should say, D.C. Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton and Virginia Republican Congressman Tom Davis.

BEGALA: Congressman Davis, Dr. Rice is a very able public spokeswoman. I'm sure she'll do just fine.

But she has had, when she's not under oath, a proclivity to say things that are not at odds-that are at odds with the facts. Case in point, she said, we were very focused on al Qaeda before September 11. Even President Bush told Bob Woodward that that wasn't the case, that he wasn't really on point. She said that President Bush had asked for an al Qaeda from the CIA. George Tenet testified, no, that's not the case. The CIA went to the White House and said, we want to tell him about the al Qaeda threat.

She said, nobody could have anticipated using planes as weapons. Plainly false. Even she's tried to correct that. Her deputy said that nobody in the situation room remembers this famous conversation between President Bush and Dick Clarke. Even the White House now has had to acknowledge that many witnesses do recall it. Doesn't she have a problem with telling the truth?

DAVIS: I'm sure she'll be under oath tomorrow. I'm sure she's been reviewing off the notes and not going off the cuff answering. And we'll have I think a better understanding of the facts after tomorrow.

She is a very articulate woman who is heavily involved with this. And I think that's why it's important she testify tomorrow under oath.

But I will say this. There's been a lot of people who try to blame Clinton or blame Bush for 9/11. You've got to blame Osama bin Laden. He deserves some responsibility here.

(APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: We had one skyjacking for 10 years prior to this element.

Now, it's important we learn from this experience so it can't happen again. But we need to understand, this was way outside the box in terms of anticipation. And we just need to make sure it doesn't happen.

CARLSON: Amen.

Delegate Norton, it's true that you have heard a lot of Democrats try to blame 9/11 on the president. It's pretty disgusting. Let me put up a fact that I think it's kind of hard to get around reported. This was reported yesterday. The final policy paper on national security that President Clinton submitted to Congress, something called the national security strategy for a global age-doubtless you read it -- 45,000 words long, makes no mention of al Qaeda and refers to Osama bin Laden by name just four times.

Isn't the point pretty much what the congressman said; nobody paid enough attention to terrorism before 9/11 and the Democrats ought to stop trying to pin 9/11 on Bush?

NORTON: Well, we're going to find out when the commission reports. But, on the record, it is clear that the Clinton people say they said to the Bush people, look, we had a lot of things on our plate. They went down what they were, but the thing that you're going to have to pay the most attention to is al Qaeda. They told them that. They were so busy being the un-Clinton new administration...

CARLSON: Why wasn't it in the report, then, if they said that?

NORTON: Look, well...

CARLSON: No, it was not in the report to Congress.

NORTON: Mentioned four times? I don't know what's in the report.

CARLSON: It doesn't mention it at all. Al Qaeda is not mentioned once.

NORTON: It said al Qaeda was mentioned four times.

CARLSON: No, Osama mentioned four times, al Qaeda not one time.

NORTON: Osama mentioned. Same thing.

BEGALA: And what group does he run?

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Well, if al Qaeda was the biggest priority, do you think they would mention it like a single time in 45,000 words?

(CROSSTALK)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

NORTON: Look, I think-I think-I think this. I think this, that, until this commission comes, we're not going to know whether Clarke's rendition of what happened is correct or the Bush's rendition. The Bush's rendition is, we were doing all we could, except all the evidence shows that we paid no attention to it.

You know what they were doing? And you know as well as I do, because you are as much a devotee of the talk shows. They had one issue and one issue only. And that was missile defense. Time-Sunday after Sunday, missile defense, missile defense. I never heard Condi Rice say the word al Qaeda or Osama once before 9/11.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Or anybody else say it, yes.

BEGALA: I want to come back to this question of credibility, because I think that's what this is all about and that why it's important that Dr. Rice be under oath. And I think we agree about that.

Yesterday, the White House spokesman complained that the last time Dr. Rice met with the commission, only five commission members showed up, suggesting maybe they weren't very interested in her testimony when it wasn't in public. What he failed to say is that the White House insisted that no more than three show up. That's a breathtaking lie.

Karen Hughes, another top aide to the president, on "Meet the Press" on Sunday said she didn't think the president really did ever oppose creating a 9/11 Commission, a flat-out falsehood. What is it that-these are good people. I know them both, Scott and Karen. Why is it when people get close to George W. Bush, they get far away from the truth?

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: What is it about him that makes these people into liars?

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: This is a particular Washington syndrome. We saw it under the Clinton administration. We see it here.

You have so many spin-meisters out there with so many different versions. It's good to get people up under oath, where they will have to answer it, read up on it, and give a straight answer. Unfortunately, I think the testimony is going to be highlighted more today than if they had come forward in the first place. That's a lesson you learn the hard way in this town. But I think that Dr. Rice will give a good accounting of the administration herself tomorrow. And we'll just have to wait and see.

CARLSON: Now, Delegate Norton, as a political matter, do you think this works? John Kerry yesterday on NPR said-made a point of saying that President Bush was on vacation in Crawford, Texas, for 30 days right before September 11, as if he was asleep at the switch, and, again, as if 9/11 was his fault.

And I'm wondering, leaving aside even the facts of that, which we'll wait until the report comes out, do you think people are going to buy that? Does that work politically? Or is it just too disgusting?

NORTON: Sure it does. Sure it does.

CARLSON: It's too disgusting, isn't it?

NORTON: Why is it-is it disgusting that he was away in Texas? Yes.

CARLSON: No, but blaming 9/11 on the president, you don't think that goes too far maybe a tiny bit?

(CROSSTALK)

NORTON: That's not what he said. He said, look, the man was not on the job. He was 30 days in Texas. I think that's fair game. Look, this is going to be a nasty campaign. There's no reason why John Kerry ought to hold back.

CARLSON: But this isn't a campaign. This is an inquiry into how 9/11 happened. It's not a campaign. And it shouldn't be, should it?

NORTON: He mentioned in answering that the man was in Texas 30 days before. That's a long time to be in Texas if what you say you were doing was preparing for the next attack, indeed, trying to be stronger, as I understand the testimony to be, stronger on Osama than the Clinton people had been. Well, you weren't being strong if you were all the way in Texas.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: We're almost out of time. I want to ask you briefly, before 9/11, do you believe the president had a higher emphasis on Star Wars or al Qaeda?

DAVIS: I think he had an emphasis on a lot of security issues, some of which he had inherited from his predecessor. It includes Star Wars in terms of conventional.

But I think we'll learn tomorrow some of the steps they had taken to fight al Qaeda and terrorism. I just don't think anybody anticipated the magnitude of what happened on 9/11. I think that was off the radar screen of both parties and everybody involved. We had not had a skyjacking in 10 years.

END