Hearing of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemispere of the House Committee on International Relations

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

SUBJECT: THE SITUATION IN HAITI

CHAIRED BY: REPRESENTATIVE CASS BALLENGER (R-NC)

LOCATION: 2172 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

WITNESSES:

ROGER F. NORIEGA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE;

ARTHUR E. DEWEY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF POPULATION, REFUGEES AND MIGRATION, DEPARTMENT OF STATE;

ADOLFO A. FRANCO, ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR, BUREAU FOR LATIN AMERICA AND CARIBBEAN, U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

BODY:
REP. CASS BALLENGER (R-NC): First of all, let me apologize to the people that sat and waited. It really wasn't 45 minutes, it was only about 40 minutes. But before we get started, I'd like-I want to ask unanimous consent that all members of Congress in attendance today be permitted to join the members of the subcommittee up here on the dais, and without objection, it's so ordered. Okay.

Thank you.

I wish to announce some of the ground rules upon which both ranking member, Mr. Menendez, and I have agreed. First, members of the subcommittee will be allowed to offer an opening statement. Second, all members of the House will be allowed to insert their written statements into the record. Third, all members, time permitting, will be given five minutes to ask questions of the witnesses. And I would like to say to those of you that are here, we're going to be pretty strict on that five minutes or we'll be here all day.

Accordingly, I ask unanimous consent to allow all non-members of the subcommittee to speak when they are recognized by the chair to question witnesses, and without objection, it's so ordered. Alternating by party, priority will be given first to the members of the subcommittee, then, as time permits, to the members of the full committee, and finally, to members who do not serve on International Relations Committee. Fourth, in the interest of time, I'm going to be pretty strict on the clock so that each member will have the best chance of being able to say something.

Before I begin with my opening statement, I wish to remind everyone that this hearing will be lively and emotional, since we all want a full debate. And I also ask that everyone remain cordial and respectful throughout, if possible, and we have an obligation to uphold the dignity of our offices and this subcommittee. While we may disagree on some issues, we remain obligated to work together to discuss the important issues which face our nation and those of Haiti. In my considered opinion, we can and must work together in good faith to meet the challenges that we now face. And now my opening statement.

This afternoon we'll examine the situation in Haiti. This situation in Haiti is, as has been for some time, extremely challenging. The needs of the Haitian people for democracy, jobs, education, healthcare, and for such basics as food and clean water are as great as they've ever been. One can lay out terrible statistics, but they can't even begin to describe the situation of Haiti's impoverished citizens.

The efforts of some of the world's most experienced diplomats to resolve the political stalemate in Haiti all ended in frustration. Do you mind sitting still? The deputy secretary general of the Organization of American States made 20 trips to Haiti to try to work out a solution. President Aristide resigned and left Haiti. Presidents in other countries, including our own, have resigned for the good of their people. Let me be clear. I fully support the steps taken by the Bush administration to give the people of Haiti a chance to build a better future. Our government has acted with the backing of other governments, particularly France and Canada, and has secured the unanimous vote of the United Nations Security Council for a resolution that supports our actions to help Haiti.

There is something else I would like to say. There have been accusations that officials of the U.S. government have committed a felony, punishable by death that is: kidnapping. The head of the Steele Foundation, which was responsible for President Aristide's security, told me personally that had U.S. forces or any other forces tried to kidnap or otherwise harm President Aristide, his men had orders to resist and were authorized to do so with lethal force, if necessary. The accusation that President Aristide was kidnapped is clearly false.

It's my hope that this hearing can support an initiative that I agreed to with several members to come together on a bipartisan basis to see how we can help Haiti. I have personally committed to deliver humanitarian assistance to Haiti with private funds as soon as the situation there permits. There is a new provisional president in place in accordance with the Haitian Constitution. American Marines are now on the ground in Haiti and it's time to move forward to help the Haitian people.

-BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT-

REP. BALLENGER: Okay. Ms. Waters.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I thank you for allowing those of us who are not members of the committee to be here today. I want you to know that several of you, including you, Mr. Chairman, have said that it's a fabrication that he was forced out, that there was no coup d'etat, he was not kidnapped. I talked to President Aristide this morning. He called me and he maintains that he was forced out, he was literally kidnapped, he did not go of his own will. So I want to put that on the record.

Secondly, I want to put on the record that I've been to Haiti three times since January 1 and I've met with the opposition, that is Mr. Apaid Junior and some of those from the Committee of 184 and talked to many people about what was going on. In addition to that, I was in Haiti a week ago this past Saturday, where you came and led the delegation of the international community where Mr. Aristide signed off on the CARICOM proposal. So I want to put that on the record.

But I'm very interested in something that you have said, and I do want yes or no answers. Don't take up my time. I want to know-you have said that you have no responsibility to protect a head of state. Are you going to protect the new chief justice that was just sworn in who's now the head of state of Haiti or not?

MR. NORIEGA: We believe that he is part of --

REP. WATERS: Are you going to protect him or not, yes or no?

MR. NORIEGA: Yes, we are because he's --

REP. WATERS: Did you refuse to protect --

MR. NORIEGA: -- part of a sustainable political --

REP. WATERS: -- Mr. Aristide, who was then head of state? So you have a different standard for these two. Is that correct?

MR. NORIEGA: We believe --

REP. WATERS: That's all I want to know, yes or not?

MR. NORIEGA: -- these are very different men and very different political --

REP. WATERS: So yes?

MR. NORIEGA: -- solutions and the --

REP. WATERS: Yes for the chief justice, no for Mr. Aristide. So you don't have a policy that is consistent about having no responsibility to protect a head of state. Let's go on --

MR. NORIEGA: That's not what I said --

REP. WATERS: -- to the next question.

MR. NORIEGA: -- the policy was, ma'am.

REP. WATERS: Mr. Noriega --

MR. NORIEGA: You're misstating what the policy --

REP. WATERS: -- people are assuming that you knew --

MR. NORIEGA: You're mistaking what the policy --

REP. WATERS: -- that the rebels-so-called rebels, who they were, and I just want some yes or no answers. Did you know about the history of Louis Jodel Chamblain? Did you know he was the right hand of Emmanuel Constant, who is now up in New York? And did you know that he had murdered Mr. Antoine Izmery, along with thousands of other Haitians? Did you know that before they reentered Haiti in this last coup d'etat that took place? Did you know about him? Had you ever heard about him and his history?

MR. NORIEGA: Yes, I have.

REP. WATERS: Have you ever met him?

MR. NORIEGA: No.

REP. WATERS: Did you know about Mr. Guy Philippe? Did you know that he was a convicted drug dealer and that there was-he attempted a coup on President Aristide in 2002, and that he's responsible for killing 26 members of Lavalas? Had you heard about him before he entered Gonaives?

MR. NORIEGA: I've heard of him, but not --

REP. WATERS: You knew about his history as a convicted drug dealer?

MR. NORIEGA: I do not know the details of that.

REP. WATERS: Did you know he had been a killer, that he was accused of killing?

MR. NORIEGA: I do not know the details of that.

REP. WATERS: Did you know he was in exile?

MR. NORIEGA: I do not know the details of his exile.

REP. WATERS: Do you know that he was in exile?

MR. NORIEGA: I knew he was in exile, yes.

REP. WATERS: Did you know that he had returned and he was up in Gonaives and Cap-Haitien?

MR. NORIEGA: I knew that he returned. I saw it on television.

REP. WATERS: Did you know about Mr. Jean Tattune (ph) and did you know he was a member of FRAPH and did you know about him before he came back into the country?

MR. NORIEGA: No, I've never heard of him.

REP. WATERS: Did you know about --

MR. NORIEGA: I hadn't heard about him before --

REP. WATERS: Had you heard --

MR. NORIEGA: -- (cross talk.)

REP. WATERS: -- that he was involved in the massacre at Raboteau?

MR. NORIEGA: I have heard that.

REP. WATERS: Have you ever met --

MR. NORIEGA: Not in-not in detail.

REP. WATERS: Have you met Mr. Guy Philippe before he returned to Haiti?

MR. NORIEGA: No, I've never met him.

REP. WATERS: Have you ever met Mr. Emmanuel Constant?

MR. NORIEGA: No, I haven't.

REP. WATERS: Did you know that he was the head of FRAPH?

MR. NORIEGA: I've heard that.

REP. WATERS: Did you know that Mr. Chamblain was his right hand?

MR. NORIEGA: I've heard that from you.

REP. WATERS: Did you know that Mr. Constant was hired and worked for the CIA?

MR. NORIEGA: No, I don't know that.

REP. WATERS: It was in the public domain, it was in the papers. You never knew it? You never heard it? You are --

MR. NORIEGA: I'm telling you I don't know that.

REP. WATERS: But you are not in sworn in but you are on record. Did you know that Mr. Constant worked for the CIA?

MR. NORIEGA: Ma'am, I'm telling you-we don't generally comment on these things, but I don't-I do not know that.

REP. WATERS: You are qualifying your statement.

MR. NORIEGA: I'm telling you that --

REP. WATERS: What you are telling me is you don't want to tell me that you know.

MR. NORIEGA: Well, I'm trying to tell you but you won't give me an opportunity.

REP. WATERS: Okay, I think I know enough. Now, you knew that these thugs had returned and that they had taken over Gonaives and Cap-Haitien. Did you at any time publicly denounce the thugs that you knew were thugs before they came in and invaded Haiti? Did you ever denounce them?

MR. NORIEGA: We said that these people should have no business in a political process and they should lay down their arms.

REP. WATERS: Did you ever attempt to make them lay down their arms, or to tell them that they were in exile, they were crooks and criminals and that they should not be in that country?

MR. NORIEGA: We-that they shouldn't be in Haiti? We've told them they should lay down their arms and go home, they have no-these violent folks have no part in --

REP. WATERS: But you did nothing to enforce it?

MR. NORIEGA: We are doing that now, ma'am.

REP. WATERS: Yeah, after the fact.

REP. BALLENGER: Time is up.

REP. WATERS: After the fact, the same crooks and criminals --

REP. BALLENGER: Time is up.

REP. WATERS: -- and thugs and killers that you knew were in the country, that you did nothing to intervene with --

(Cross talk.)

REP. WATERS: -- saying they should leave. Is that right?

(Cross talk.)