Hearing of the United States Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (Helsinki Commission) - Belgium's Chairmanship of the OSC

Interview

Hearing of the United States Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (Helsinki Commission) - Belgium's Chairmanship of the OSCE

SEN. BROWNBACK: I call the hearing to order. Thank you all for being here. Sorry for being late coming over from the Senate side, while my House colleagues were already here. Congressman Hastings, Congressman Aderholt -- delighted to have you here with this hearing, as well.

On behalf of my colleagues on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, I am pleased to welcome Minister De Gucht. I hope I got that correct.

Did I pronounce that correct -- De Gucht?

MIN. DE GUCHT: No, but you would be the first one who manages to...

(Cross talk.)

SEN. BROWNBACK: You would think with my German ancestry I could get this correct. Would you mind giving me a correct enunciation?

MIN. DE GUCHT: It's De Gucht -- with a soft "g."

SEN. BROWNBACK: De Gucht.

MIN. DE GUCHT: De Gucht.

SEN. BROWNBACK: De Gucht.

MIN. DE GUCHT: De Gucht.

SEN. BROWNBACK: Am I close? We will keep practicing. I want to welcome you to our hearing today, and despite my difficulty in enunciation, we're delighted to have you here. I appreciate the opportunity to hear your assessment of the developments in the OSCE region and beyond as we partnered up to uphold human dignity and to promote democracy.

This year marks the 30th anniversary of the Helsinki Commission, which is quite a milestone, but not just in years and accomplishment. Our mission is to monitor the progress of the 56 participating states in the OSCE region -- implementation 1975 Helsinki accords -- and really, to spread the vision around the world.

I know that my fellow commissioners and I, as well as our able commission staff, take seriously our mandate to monitor implementation of all the commitments agreed to by the OSCE countries in security, economic and human dimensions.

The OSCE's comprehensive approach to security makes it well suited to address pressing issues facing us today -- many different issues, including things like trafficking, corruption and terrorism.

The OSCE has been a resource for governments desiring to change and a valuable voice in speaking out against human rights abuses, but the institution continues to be challenged by the presence of regimes that resort to repression to remain in power.

Some participating states simply do not abide by the promises they made in joining the organization. Regrettably, trends in several states do not give rise to much optimism. In the face of this reality, we can either lower the bar, or we double our efforts to foster change. I vote for the latter.

The former would be tantamount to an abandonment of the very principles we share on the paper, if not in reality. While some seek to weaken our resolve, we must press on and not lose sight of our objective.

Indeed, the OSCE continues to provide a comprehensive framework for progress. The participating states must supply the political will to make the promise of progress a reality.

The current situation in Central Asia and the Caucasus is one example of this promise, and I'm optimistic that the countries of that region can overcome the crippling legacy of communism and seek a brighter future for their people.

I know that I and my fellow commissioners are keenly interested in the developments of democracy in the area. Representative Smith has introduced the Central Asia Democracy Act, and I introduced the Silk Road Strategy Act of 2006, which is a follow-on to the Silk Road Strategy Act previously passed -- both seeking to foster the development of democracy, the rule of law and greater respect for human rights.

I believe we need to take a comprehensive approach to the region and engage in security, economic development and democracy, along with human rights. The Silk Road Strategy Bills target that broad basis.

While there's been tremendous progress in the 15 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, I see some very worrying trends in the region. I think these are probably the same issues on your mind, as well.

Russia, a country with an increasingly ambiguous rights record, has been all too willing to coddle dictators, as evidenced by President Putin's hosting of Mr. Karimov on the eve of the anniversary of the bloody massacre in Andijan. Russia continues to maintain close ties with Lukashenko in Belarus, despite his being ostracized by the European Union and the United States, among others.

And I'm also troubled by developments in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a collection of largely authoritarian and anti- democratic regimes with little tolerance for human rights.

Mr. Minister, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these and other issues that you'd like to share with us. We're delighted to have you here. Thank you for joining us and for being a co-conspirator on spreading human rights and dignity around the world.

I want to recognize my colleagues, as well, if they have an initial statement.

Congressman Cardin, if you had a thought you'd like to put forward?

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

SEN. BROWNBACK: If I could on this -- Congressman, please forgive me -- but, Congressmen Pitts and Aderholt -- if they had a question they wanted to put forward before you have to run for the vote, I want to make sure to get those in so that we can add those to you.

Congressman Pitts, you had asked about the child pornography -- if you had additional question or comment to put forward?

REP. PITTS: Mr. Chairman, I was just going to ask about the human-trafficking emphasis that we've attempted to address in terms of U.S. law and encouraging other OSCE countries to take action. And in terms of the ongoing work and the follow-up on the anti-trafficking initiatives -- are these continuing despite the recent personnel changes, and are there other ways to enhance the good work of the anti-trafficking unit to ensure a sustained focus on the work to combat human trafficking?

SEN. BROWNBACK: And then Congressman Aderholt -- before you guys have to run, do you have --

REP. ADERHOLT: I don't have anything. I just want to say again, welcome to -- thank you for being here today, and welcome to our hearing. And we look forward to visit with you more in Brussels. Thank you.

SEN. BROWNBACK: Sorry about stacking those on you, but it was the way we could be most efficient to get the thoughts and put forward, because I can stay here and don't have a hearing.

Do you care to respond to those? Then, I have a series of questions I'd like to pose to you if I could, Minister.

MIN. DE GUCHT: OK. Questions put by Mr. Pitts -- child pornography -- it has, of course, to do with organized crime and also with human trafficking, but it's not limited to that. And I think you're rightly putting emphasis on this, and we will take it with us to the ministerial conference in Brussels, and we will certainly pay attention to that and see how we can develop for next year a program on this.

Your question on human trafficking -- yes, we needed some institutional reforms. We have managed to get an agreement on that. The unit is continuing working, and we plan to appoint a new person -- representatives --in the weeks to come. You know that there has been some discussion on the person who was in charge of it, so I will try to get to a consensus on somebody to do the job in the coming weeks.

The question put by Congressman Cardin -- I know that there are some discussions between the Parliamentary Assembly and -- not Vienna. It's Warsaw. I mean, they are based in Warsaw -- ODIHR. And sometimes there is a somewhat difficult relationship between both, and I've tried to solve the question. I just made an appointment with Chairman Hastings to discuss it in Brussels, how we can solve the question, because I think it is very important to do so, because if not, it would weaken ODIHR, and that certainly cannot be the aim.

Having said this, there is, of course, a lot of discussion on the way election monitoring should be pursued. And what I have done is I have appointed two seasoned politicians -- the former minister of defense of Belgium and a former minister of foreign affairs of Denmark to make a report on how actually election monitoring is done on the ground.

And they have been present in Belarus, they have been present in Ukraine, they have been present in Montenegro, and they are preparing a report for me so that I have a -- I can't get there. I mean, I cannot go there when there is election monitoring because that would create a diplomatic incident probably, so I have sent other eyes there, but completely trusted sirs and trustfully, our eyes to look at what actually happens.

And on the basis of that, I will have discussions with the Parliamentary Assembly and with ODIHR to come to an arrangement that will strengthen, in fact, the election monitoring, because that should be the aim. We should strengthen it.

I also have a couple of questions that I got here, Chairman, on Uzbekistan and on regional conflicts. Am I supposed to answer them or --

SEN. BROWNBACK: We may get to those. I've got a couple here, and so, if you wouldn't mind -- if I could pose some questions to you. And again, I'm very appreciative of your efforts.

I'd really like for you to back up and tell me your view of these world-shaping events that are taking place right now and how it is that you see we should address them. I'm particularly interested in the Shanghai Cooperation Group and what they're doing on shaping or not shaping human rights efforts in the OSCE countries.

What is your view of the Shanghai Cooperation Group and how it is impacting, either positive or negative, the development of human rights -- democracy -- in the OSCE region?

MIN. DE GUCHT: Well, Chairman, I think all initiatives to strengthen confidence-building and demilitarization of border regions and to help resolve border disputes by peaceful means are welcome, of course. But, they should not become competitive bodies. You know that the membership includes China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Iran, Pakistan, India and Mongolia have observer status, so it's largely a Central Asian and Asian initiative.

A lot of the significance of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization has to do with the participation of China, of course. They are part of the organization. And therefore, they are able to serve as a forum for Russo-Chinese dialogue in cooperation of regional issues in Central Asia.

That means that it can be competitive to interests of other global powers that -- I think we should be aware of that. Now, the last Senate was on the 15th of June 2006, and Iran manifested its desire to become a member. The focus was on Afghanistan, and everybody knows that Iran has some influence in Afghanistan and in the broader region.

Members pledged to combine forces to tackle the heroine trade and the deteriorating security position. We were not invited to the SCO Summit, and we have no formal relations between the SCO and the OSCE. And I think there is a serious fear that in the minds of some participants, they see it as a competitive organization to the OSCE.

SEN. BROWNBACK: What do you see it as?

MIN. DE GUCHT: I think it's true. I also feel it like that, when you look to the participating states, most of the Central Asian states are involved, and I think the difference is -- as I see it, the fundamental problem within the OSCE is that all participating states have adhered to common principles. They have signed agreements and treaties on that.

But several of the participating states don't really like all of these principles, and what we tried to do within the OSCE is get to stability, but respect of principles is one of the -- not only building blocks, but is in fact the cornerstone of our vision of stability.

And what I feel a little bit is that within this organization, the SCO, they are also developing a philosophy on stability, but where the role of common principles -- democratic principles -- that's what we are talking about -- to say it mildly, is not that big.

That's how I think the fundamental difference between the two organizations.

SEN. BROWNBACK: You put it mildly; as you say, isn't it even a group that is opposed to democracy?

MIN. DE GUCHT: That would be too harsh to say, I think. There is in certain Central Asian states, there is an awareness that the trend of history is towards democracy, but you also have to look at the recent history of those countries. They all belong to the Soviet Union. When you look at their leaders, almost all of them date from that period -- already played an important role in the era of the Soviet Union. So, they are countries in transition.

But, in some of them, there is an awareness that the trend of history is towards democracy. But it's not easy to go through this transition, and that's what you witness.

For example, in Kazakhstan, I think they are aware of that, but they are also facing the fact of life that it's not easy to build a democracy. That would be my judgment on that.

SEN. BROWNBACK: So, let me put a finer point on this because I appreciate your thought on this, and I see what you're saying. And I've travelled this region, and I've worked with a number of countries in Central Asia for some period of time. And this is a difficult transition -- to go from an authoritarian state to a democracy. And it's not anything that you make one step and it's over with.

It is a many-step process, but it seems as if this Shanghai Cooperation Organization is almost a blocking mechanism from too much pushing from the West to democratize; that it's used in that sense and saying, "OK, now, if we let the Western countries, the democratic countries, push us individually, we're going to get pushed further than we want to go. But if we bind together, we're not going to be able to get pushed on this, even if we do recognize that democracy is the historical trend line; that people do best when they're freest."

Am I misinterpreting this group from your practical experience in dealing with the countries that make up the SCO?

MIN. DE GUCHT: Well, you're giving your interpretation. I'm not saying that this is a misinterpretation, but I think the difference between you and me is that you are a U.S. senator and I am the chairman-in-office of the OSCE.

SEN. BROWNBACK: I recognize that -- (laughter) -- and I'm really -- I am trying to appreciate and understand your view of this group, because I think it's an important recognition of how we view and how we strategically deal with this group.

And I recognize one of us has, perhaps, greater freedoms than the other at this point in time, but I think it's important on how we look at this group.

MIN. DE GUCHT: As I've already said, some participating states have some problems with the principles that they have subscribed, and let's say that's -- on behalf of some participating states, is a counter-offensive.

Take, for example, the stance of the Uzbek regime. It's very obvious we have to renegotiate the mandate for our mission there. And I don't know whether we will come to an agreement, because if you have to go below certain standards, maybe it's better not to have a representation there anymore. We are in the negotiating process.

But, on the other hand, I think that if we believe that OSC is an important organization, we also need to demonstrate the flexible to grow our service through this transition, because if you don't show some flexibility, then the organization itself will come into difficulty, and then we will, in fact, lose a very important tool to spread democracy.

And that's -- as you said in your introduction, a tremendous lot of things have happened in the past 15 years.

SEN. BROWNBACK: They have. It's been beautiful.

MIN. DE GUCHT: The world has changed dramatically, so maybe we need to have a little bit of patience and be very cautious, sometimes flexible, but keep to our principles, because if we approach it in too harsh a way, then the first victim could be the organization itself, and that certainly cannot be the aim.

SEN. BROWNBACK: I appreciate that, and there's probably a great deal of wisdom in that, and I also appreciate the positive nature of what a group, as you noted, The Shanghai Cooperation Organization, can produce. And some economic cooperation within the region and another forum for dialogue within the region -- in a difficult area, I think those can be very positive.

We've invested so much in the push for democracy and human rights, and we know this to be true: that people do best when they're freest. We know this to be true. We have the practical experience of many years. We strongly subscribe to that notion; that liberty is a gift for all of us to participate in, not just the Western world and not just a certain ideology or certain region.

And we've never given up on that concept, and we've never given in on that concept. And it seems to me that it's important that we press groups like the SCO to endorse that concept -- say that, "This is fundamental. It's in your constitutions in many of your countries. It's an important matter for the dignity of the human individual, wherever they're located." And so then, maybe we don't put it in a negative, but we put it in a positive towards them to endorse and to embrace these principles that most would find history moving towards. Maybe that's the better way to place it.

It seems as if the action of a number of these countries in the region is negative towards the OSCE core principles and the individual, and that they're finding ways to bind together collectively to slow this push that's underway clearly in the region to slow it down. And maybe there are some reasons in various places for it to move at different paces than what it moves -- there isn't a uniform pace that human rights and the recognition of human dignity moves at, but it is something that we will not give up pressing on and pressing organizations about, as well.

Have you been meeting -- I presume you have -- with the leadership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization?

MIN. DE GUCHT: The leadership itself, no, but I have met with the Kazakhs, the Kyrgis, the Russians, of course, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan -- so, the individual members, yes, but not the leadership as such.

SEN. BROWNBACK: And that may be something that we need to press from here, as well -- from Washington -- to meet with the leadership of that group to be able to ascertain, do they embrace the same principles? Will they embrace the same principles on human rights and the dignity of the individual?

I want to thank you very much for being here, for addressing a number of these cutting-edge human rights issues, trafficking, child pornography. We're seeing a lot of trafficking into the United States. We're seeing a lot of it happening in many places around the world -- the new form of slavery -- and it does seem like this would be a key topic for OSCE to be able to address.

I do hope we can continue to push on some of these frozen conflict areas that are very difficult, but ones that, if they can be addressed, broaden the freedoms for many individuals -- those involved, clearly, but also on a broader scale, as well. And I think you'll see us from here -- from the United States -- pushing on a lot of these countries via the multilateral institutions to continue to push this agenda that's an agreed-upon agenda, but trying to use the broad multilateral institutions to do that in as being as effective a way as we can. And we will also do so individually, too, because we believe very strongly in the concepts.

Thank you very much. Godspeed to you in your remainder of your term as the chairman-in-office for the OSCE. You have a very heavy agenda in front of you, and I wish you all the best with that.

MIN. DE GUCHT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

SEN. BROWNBACK: This hearing's adjourned.

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