MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

MR. MATTHEWS: New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson is an international peacemaker and troubleshooter. He just brokered a 60- day cease-fire on Darfur between the Sudanese government and rebel factions there. He's served as ambassador to the United Nations, as U.S. Energy secretary, U.S. congressman for years, and many people believe a soon-to-be contender for the presidency.

Congratulations, Governor, and welcome to "Hardball." It's great to have you. I'm a big fan, as you know.

The latest Gallup poll says that two to one, this poll that just came out, it's up to the Democrats to take the lead in getting control of this war. Do you believe the Democratic-controlled Congress will begin to take a role in the direction of this war, or will they just be critics?

GOV. RICHARDSON: They will start out being critics, and that is manifested by probably a resolution that opposes the president's surge or increase in troops. Then, Chris, as the opposition hardens and the nation turns against the policy, as it already has, and as more Republicans express skepticism -- I just heard your program -- you're going to see appropriations writers that restrict troop funding, that restrict all kinds of financial support for the war. And that should be the proper role.

The president is not listening. It's not a partisan issue. This is national; the Iraq Study Group. The American people want a different course in Iraq. And what does the president do? He has a surge. The only surge that should happen is a surge in diplomacy, a surge in a political solution, a withdrawal that I believe is necessary this year that is tied to a political solution, a reconciliation conference, and you deploy those troops where we need them, in Afghanistan to fight international terrorism, nuclear proliferation, loose nuclear weapons. Those are our interests.

And instead of saying that we're now going to look at Iran, we should be talking to Syria. We should be talking to Iran -- hard bargaining, but look at a comprehensive solution that also deals with the Israeli-Palestinian issue, because there's ferment in the whole region, and it's not just Iraq.

MR. MATTHEWS: What was your reaction watching the president when, instead of following the advice of the Iraq Study Group to begin to engage diplomatically with Iran, he basically shot a warning shot to them, saying, "We're going to intercept any efforts by you folks to get involved in the Iraqi situation"? It looked to me like the stepping stones to war with Iran. How did you read it?

GOV. RICHARDSON: Well, I hope that's not the case. But certainly it was very provocative language. And that's the kind of language that has gotten us in trouble with North Korea, not that we should not be hostile to North Korea, but you don't have to go out of your way to draw a line in the sand to Syria, to Iran.

The last thing we need to do is provoke another military conflict anywhere. We don't have the resources, the military. There is really no military option towards Iran. We should be engaging Iran. We should be conducting tough bargaining.

On the other hand, Chris, I don't support other moves in the Congress that basically say the president should be prohibited from going into Iran. That restricts presidential power to conduct war, which I think is a prerogative of the executive branch, even though I was a congressman for many years.

MR. MATTHEWS: Is it a prerogative of this president or any other to begin ginning up a war? For example, if we do pursue the Iranian forces wherever or we go into Iranian territory, bomb some sites, Ahmadinejad, of course, out of his own indignation, will fire out some missiles or do something like that.

Then we have a justification for invading, attacking Iran and bombing its nuclear sites. And then the president can say, "Oh, I was really only protecting our troops in Iraq. I guess part of our defense was to go in there and blow the hell out of their nuclear installations." That makes President Bush a hero to his people on his side of the argument. You don't think that's going to happen, what I just described?

GOV. RICHARDSON: Chris, I don't believe that's going to happen, because militarily our military is going to say there is really right now no military option. We don't know where these sites are. Here Iran is a major power in the region. In four or five years they're going to be possessing nuclear weapons. They're the second-largest producer of OPEC, of the oil supply they could disrupt.

So I believe the options are diplomatic. And there, I think, we've been pursuing the right course with the Europeans, looking at the United Nations for financial and economic sanctions. I believe that would squeeze them, call their bluff. But looking at a military option does not make sense.

On the other hand, I don't believe that there should be speculatively a pre-prohibition on any country. You don't want to restrict any president at any point to do that.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, I don't know whether the movie about you is going to be starring Charlton Heston or not, but you certainly have carried back from the Sudan some of the aspects of Chinese Gordon himself. How did you get together over there to bring those parties together, including the government to a 60-day cease-fire in the Sudan?

GOV. RICHARDSON: Well, I knew this previous -- the president of the Sudan, and I had dealt with him before. I got an American journalist out there about four months ago, and I leveled with him. I said, "You know, you're getting terrible press all over the world. You're a country that has more sanctions than anybody else."

And I was traveling with a group called the Save Darfur Coalition that's about 800,000 Americans that want to do something about that war, about that famine there, about the numerous rapes that occur. And I said, "Look, it makes sense for you to reverse course. And we'll go to the rebels and get them to agree to a cease-fire. You agree to a cease-fire. And then the next step should be to allow U.N. peacekeeping troops," which he so far has refused to do.

And I believe, Chris, that talking to your adversaries, negotiating, diplomacy, you know, with North Korea, with Iran, with Syria, now with Sudan, if you engage them and conduct hard bargaining, you get things done. And in Darfur, I think we've got some progress. There's 300,000 that have been killed in that war, 2.5 million displaced. And through the generosity of the Save Darfur Coalition and philanthropists like Danny Abraham that paid for the trip, we've actually improved the lives of people.

Maybe the cease-fire will have glitches. Maybe it won't hold totally. But at least people are talking to each other. Bad guys are talking to bad guys, and we may get something done.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, thanks for your service to the country and the world on that, Governor. It's a great honor to have you on the show, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico.

END.

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