CNN "Late Edition"-Transcript

Interview

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up, perspective on the Iraq war strategy, efforts to stamp out the insurgency from the Iraqi national security adviser, Mowaffak al-Rubaie. We'll go back to Baghdad to speak with him.

But right now, let's talk about that and much more with the two top members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. In Burlington, Vermont, the committee's Democratic chairman, Patrick Leahy, and in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the panel's ranking Republican, Arlen Specter. Senators, thanks very much for coming in.

Senator Leahy, let's start with the situation in Iraq. The Senate expected in the next week or two, maybe three, to discuss whether there should be another formal withdrawal deadline.

But you just heard a top general, General Lynch, appeal for patience, give his new strategy, the military strategy that the president supports, an opportunity to work. Are you ready to be patient and to give this new strategy time?

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: I'm not ready to be patient because I've heard one new strategy after another. We've been in Iraq longer than we were in World War II. We went in under false pretenses, or at least the premise given to the American people was false. There were no weapons of mass destruction. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11.

We have very, very brave men and women who are over there. Many dying, many being mutilated, as well as thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, and we are caught in the middle of a civil war. It is time to say to the Iraqis, we are leaving, it's time for you, you Iraqis, to pull together and work your way out of this civil war.

We will have spent nearly $1 trillion. We are spending $12 billion a month in Iraq. That's money that we have to take out of everything from law enforcement to school systems in the United States because the president says we can't afford those things because of the war in Iraq. It is time to get out.

BLITZER: What about that, Senator Specter? You for some time have suggested this is a civil war that's happening in Iraq. Do you agree with Senator Leahy?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, there is no doubt there is a civil war. And had we known Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction, we wouldn't have gone in. And now we don't want to leave Iraq in a state of total disorder.

I'm going to be listening very closely to the debate next week. I'm going to separate presidential politics from the military evaluation. We have given General Petraeus until September to give us a report.

We have to bear in mind our decision on funding is not going to be in the next week or two. That's going to come in September, when we take up the Department of Defense appropriations bill. But I'm going to be listening very closely. When Senator Lugar speaks, everybody listens.

BLITZER: On that point, Senator Specter, Senator Lugar, Senator Voinovich, Senator Domenici, all Republicans, Senator Hagel for some time now expressed their deep concern, dissenting from this new strategy. Do you put yourself in that category?

SPECTER: Well, deep concern? absolutely. Putting a deadline date with a time when the enemy, the insurgents just have to wait us out depends upon the evolving picture. I think General Lynch has it exactly right when he says a lot of factors are changing.

I want to hear the debate. I want to hear the up-to-date military assessments. These issues are much too important to make a judgment on a Sunday talk show, important as yours is, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you for that. Let me go back to Senator Leahy. Senator Leahy, I spoke with the Iraqi national security adviser, Mowaffak al-Rubaie. That interview is coming up in the next hour. But he warned that if the current government of Prime Minister Nouri al- Maliki were to collapse or go down in some way, all hell would break loose after that.

Listen to what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOWAFFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQI NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I can tell you one thing, that after Maliki, there is going to be the hurricane in Iraq. This is extremely important point to make across to the western audience and to the Arab audience, as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So his bottom line, Senator Leahy, is as bad as the situation is right now, it could be a whole lot worse.

LEAHY: You know, it's interesting he says the message he wants to make to the American audience and the Arab audience. We are carrying the bulk of this load. Our children and our grandchildren will still be paying the bills that we ran up and will be paying for the fact we haven't been able to do things here in the United States for Americans that we should do.

But he also said he hopes the Arab world is listening. It's not a bad time for the Arab world, awash in petrol dollars, to step forward, get off the fence, start bringing the pressure and bring a conclusion to this, all of it.

Including even Iran, which has, you know, historical animosities with many in Iraq. Notwithstanding the fact that they have -- that they're stirring up a lot of trouble there. They all, Saudi Arabia, Iran, other countries in the Middle East, have a major take in what happens. It's time for them to come in and start picking up some of the load.

BLITZER: Well, speaking of Iran, Senator Specter, let me read to you what your colleague Joe Lieberman, Independent of Connecticut, said this week in his hometown newspaper in the Hartford Courant: "The fact is that the Iranian government by its actions declared war on us. The United States government has a responsibility to use all instruments at its disposal to stop these terrorist attacks against our soldiers and allies in Iraq, including keeping open the possibility of using military force against the terrorist infrastructure inside Iran."

Are you with Senator Lieberman on that?

SPECTER: Well, I would say keep open the possibility, which are his words, keep it on the table, but first I would intensify the diplomatic efforts that are under way. Finally, we're engaging in Iran on negotiations or discussions about Iraq.

I would broaden those discussions to include their nuclear capability. The military option has to remain open as a possibility, as Senator Lieberman says, but it's the last resort.

And first, I think we ought to be a lot more intense on diplomacy bilaterally, and also in bringing in Russia and China to help us put pressure on Iran, and very tough economic sanctions. They worked on North Korea. Let's impose them on Iran.

BLITZER: Senator Leahy, I want you to weigh in on that Iran issue, as well. Are you, like some Democrats, concerned that the Bush administration is thinking of using the military option against Iran because of its nuclear weapons program, if you will?

LEAHY: There is no question that there are some in the administration that would love to use the military option there. I'm not sure where they are going to get the military option, considering how spread thin we are in Iraq, a war they went into without adequate planning and with a hubris that will go down in history as one of the most amazing mistakes ever made by this country.

I absolutely agree with Senator Specter that we should intensify our diplomatic efforts. The nuclear issue should be on the table. I think that if Russia and China are going to show, especially Russia, are going to show any kind of responsibility here, they've got to be actively involved.

But I think also the Europeans have got to talk with us about the economic sanctions that could be brought. Remember, in the world currency you've got the dollar, the euros, you've got the yen. The currency of Iran doesn't trade very well around the world. If you start closing off some of the economic avenues to them, then that is pressure they are going to understand.

But I don't know how we could realistically try to invade Iran. What would you do, I know one thing you would do is that a lot of people in Iran who don't care for the current leadership would suddenly find they would support that leadership rather than have a country invading them.

BLITZER: All right, senators, stand by because we have a lot more to talk about. We're going to get to some domestic issues after we take this short little break. We'll ask senators Specter and Leahy to give us their take on the subpoena standoff between the White House and the Congress right now. Which side is about to blink first?

And later, from the war in Iraq to the presidential campaign trail. We'll sort through all of the week's politics with Ed Henry, Suzanne Malveaux, Joe Johns. They're part of the best political team on television.

Stay with "Late Edition." We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I thought that the jury verdict should stand. I felt the punishment was severe, so I made a decision that would commute his sentence, but leave in place a serious fine and probation. As to the future, I'm, you know, rule nothing in and nothing out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: President Bush speaking this week on his decision to commute the sentence of Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the vice president's former top aide. Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We're talking with Senator Patrick Leahy, the Democratic chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and Senator Arlen Specter, the panel's ranking Republican.

Do you have a problem, Senator Leahy, with anything the president decided in terms of the legality of what he did? He was within his right to commute the sentence.

LEAHY: The president has a constitutional right or has the constitutional power to commute sentences of anybody he wants. I wish he had shown more constitutional responsibility. Just as I was critical of some of the pardons by President Clinton, former President Bush or President Reagan, I've said they have the power to do it, but I didn't think they used good judgment.

It was not a surprise he did this. It was generally assumed, certainly in Washington, by Republicans I talked with, that the president would give Scooter Libby a "get out of jail free" card. It's interesting he commuted the sentence. He didn't give an out and out pardon. That way Scooter Libby can take the fifth amendment if he wants as far as any testimony before (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Well, I was going to ask you, Senator Leahy. Do you want to hold hearings on this whole issue?

LEAHY: No, because he's got a fifth amendment right that he can still do. I mean, this was, actually in my view, a blatant way of guaranteeing that Scooter Libby would not talk about the things that were done, you know, some of the misleading information given out by Vice President Cheney and the president. They led us into this war in Iraq, and they bought his silence. I can understand why the prosecutor was so angry about it.

BLITZER: You're talking about Patrick Fitzgerald, your colleague, Senator...

LEAHY: Also the fact...

BLITZER: I was going to say...

LEAHY: Also the fact that he was given, when the president talked about a severe sentence, he was given at the low end of the sentencing guidelines. People have been given much, much harsher sentences than he was given.

BLITZER: Senator Schumer of the Judiciary Committee wants you to call Patrick Fitzgerald to testify before your committee on this whole issue. Do you want to do that?

LEAHY: That's something I would discuss with Senator Specter before I did, but I know how concerned Mr. Fitzgerald is.

And we may very well find ourselves going down that path. It would do no good to call Scooter Libby. His silence has been bought and paid for, and he would just take the fifth.

BLITZER: Senator Specter, what do you think about bringing Patrick Fitzgerald before the committee?

SPECTER: Reluctant as I am to agree with Senator Schumer, I think he's right. And I'll tell you exactly why. As a former prosecutor, I don't have any brief (ph) for perjury and obstruction of justice, but I still haven't figured out what that case is all about.

Mr. Fitzgerald himself took out of the case the outing of Valerie Plame as a covert agent. We knew that the leak was Armitage long before Libby was ever called as a witness. We have Judith Miller kept in jail for 85 days. I visited her in the jail on the issue of reporter's privilege. That court case cost several million dollars to prosecute.

And there are a lot of ramifications that I think we ought to go into. Why were they pursuing the matter long after there was no underlying crime on the outing of the CIA agent? Why were they pursuing it after we knew who the leaker was?

BLITZER: Let me go back...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Go ahead, Senator.

LEAHY: I think if my friend Arlen, and like me, he's also -- you know, we were both former prosecutors. That's where we first met. And we tend to take a prosecutor's view on this. If he has no objection to Mr. Fitzgerald coming forward, I think you may very well see Mr. Fitzgerald before the Senate Judiciary Committee.

On these things, what I've always done is discuss them first with Senator Specter because we tried to take a bipartisan attitude toward these matters. But I have some of the very same questions in mind that Senator Specter has laid out very well. And I think you might find it to be an interesting hearing.

BLITZER: I'm sure we will.

SPECTER: Wolf, we don't have to issue a subpoena now because I'm sure Mr. Fitzgerald watches your show like everybody else. BLITZER: Well, we'll see. I'm sure he's got maybe something better he wants to do this morning. Let's talk a little bit about these subpoenas that have been issued to two former White House officials, Senator Leahy, Sara Taylor, the political director, Harriet Miers, the former White House counsel.

You're getting a letter, you're getting indications from the White House counsel, Fred Fielding, they don't want these two women to appear before your committee. How far are you willing to go in trying to force their testimony?

LEAHY: We'll ask Miss Taylor when she does come before the committee this week just where she feels on this. I haven't heard anything from Mr. Fielding or anybody else at the White House that would justify a claim of executive privilege.

Remember, this is a woman who sent something like 60,000 e-mails on the Republican National Committee account, not e-mails to the president, but political e-mails while she was there.

Many involved the, what I feel was manipulation of prosecution by U.S. attorneys. There's certainly no executive privilege for something like that. And interestingly enough, the White House, when first asked about these e-mails, they said they'd all been erased.

My response was, well, you can't erase e-mails. They sort of pooh-poohed that, and then all of a sudden, they found the e-mails. And I think that embarrassed them that they were actually still there. They still don't want to give them up. We'll ask her about it.

So far, the White House has not given us a single piece of paper. They've not given us a single witness. I think it's time for the stonewalling to stop.

BLITZER: What do you think, Senator Specter? We're talking about the firing of those nine chief prosecutors around the country and how those decisions were made.

SPECTER: I think it's very important that we get to the bottom of it as soon as possible because Attorney General Gonzales continues to serve and the Department of Justice is in total disarray. I don't want to see a lengthy legal battle because it will take more than two years.

And right now, the important thing is how the Department of Justice is functioning. We heard from Sara Taylor's lawyer by letter over the weekend that she's prepared to testify, but she doesn't want to flout what the president says.

I think Senator Leahy is right. We bring Ms. Taylor in, and we can ask her a lot of questions that don't involve executive privilege at all. Similarly, I would take up the president on his limited offer to make Karl Rove and Harriet Miers and other White House officials available, even if it's on an informal basis. That's not my choice, but I will take it a step at a time.

BLITZER: But they don't even want a transcript of that. Are you ready to go that far? Because in the past, Senator Specter, you've said they should at least have a transcript.

SPECTER: Well, I think they should have a transcript. And I think that the other conditions go too far. I'd like to see them under oath. But right now, we're faced with a situation. Either we get some information which may enable us to really make the case against Attorney General Gonzales so strong that he has to be replaced, or have a two-year battle where we won't get anything.

Let's take it a step at a time. Let's hear from Karl Rove, from Harriet Miers informally. We can always issue subpoenas at a later time and get tough as a couple of former prosecutors like Leahy and Arlen Specter want to do.

LEAHY: Well, of course, the only problem with that -- I agree with much of what Arlen said, but the problem with it, the White House has said we want them behind closed doors, no oath, no transcript, a limited number of members of Congress who could ask the questions.

They would set the agenda of what we could ask questions with, and it would have to be with the agreement from me and the House chairman that there would be no follow-up subpoenas. In many ways, that's not an offer. That's not an offer.

SPECTER: Let me ask Patrick Leahy a question, irregular as it is. Patrick, don't you think you and I behind closed doors could get a lot of important information? You and I and others know how to ask questions. It would be a good starting place. We'd know a lot more than we know today.

LEAHY: But unfortunately, they said there is no way we have to agree to do no follow-up. So they could just, two minutes into the thing, get up and walk out. And we'd be left...

SPECTER: I agree with you that we cannot give away our authority for a follow-up.

LEAHY: But you know, the problem, the problem we have, Arlen, I've asked the White House several times if they have any, willing to give any give in this at all. They say absolutely not. This is a take-it-or-leave-it offer.

Now, Mr. Fielding is a very nice man, a good lawyer. He's had experience when he worked for Richard Nixon the same issues coming up during the Nixon White House. And he's made it very clear this is their take-it-or-leave-it offer.

SPECTER: Patrick?

LEAHY: Yes, sir.

SPECTER: One thing we haven't done is asked for a meeting with the president. Why don't you and John Conyers and I ask for a meeting with the president? We may be a little tired of dealing with his lawyer.

LEAHY: Why don't you and I chat about this tomorrow when we're (ph) on the floor, so we won't be having to be taking up Wolf's time on this thing.

SPECTER: Well, I don't think Wolf's mind a bit. That's the first time he hasn't interrupted in years.

BLITZER: Fascinating opportunity for not only me but all of our viewers to be eavesdropping on a significant conversation.

LEAHY: Wolf is thinking he'd like to come along to that meeting.

BLITZER: I'd love to come to the meeting. Good luck in getting it done.

SPECTER: As soon as Wolf gets elected he can come.

BLITZER: Senators, we're going to have to leave it right there. A good discussion here on "Late Edition." Thanks to both of you for joining us.

SPECTER: Nice being with you, Wolf. Thank you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

LEAHY: I'll see you tomorrow, Arlen.

SPECTER: OK, Patrick.

LEAHY: Take care.

BLITZER: Thank you.

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