MSNBC Buchanan and Press - Transcript

MSNBC

SHOW: BUCHANAN & PRESS

BYLINE: Pat Buchanan; Bill Press

GUESTS: Ed Gillespie; Merv Griffin; Todd Purdum; Tony Blankley; Katrina Vanden Heuvel; John McCain

HIGHLIGHT:
Did President Bush decide to invade Iraq just days after the 9-11 attacks? Did Howard Dean's comments about the confederate flag hurt his chances of winning the South? Does America need more boots on the ground to win the war in Iraq? Should the media be allowed to film the coffins of fallen soldiers?

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

BUCHANAN: Welcome back. Senator John McCain says that if the United States does not send more U.S. troops to Iraq now we are risking the most serious American defeat on the global stage since Vietnam. He joins us now.

Welcome, Senator McCain. Thank you for joining us.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: Thank you Pat. Thank you Pat, Bill. BUCHANAN: Senator, according to what you said, we need 15,000 more American ground troops in Iraq now, otherwise we risk a debacle like the American defeat in Vietnam. But from what I've read, General Peter Pace is saying that the United States is going have only 100,000 troops in Iraq by May. That means we're going start withdrawing them at the rate of 5,000 a month. What's going to happen? MCCAIN: Well, Pat, I'm very concerned. And first of all, could I say this is not Vietnam. Vietnam was a nationalist movement, well supplied by superpower in the most difficult kind of terrain. And so I don't compare it to Vietnam. But I compare the consequences of failure to Vietnam. But, look, I respect the opinion of General Pace, Secretary Rumsfeld and all of our military leaders because every time I say this, they say well none of the commanders on the ground have asked for additional troops.

And my point is that everybody is entitled to their opinion. I went there in August and I talked to a lot of people including the sergeant majors who told me a very different story. But the facts on the ground are what's compelling. The improvised explosive devices up. The number of attacks on U.S. forces up. The number of U.S. wounded up. The number of U.S. killed tragically up.

All of the trends are inextricably and tragically on the increase week by week and which means that things are not going well. So it's—these are not opinions. They're facts on the ground and they're very disturbing and we need more Special Forces, more Marines, more linguists, more counterintelligence. We don't need more tanks. We don't need more Howitzers. We need the kind of people that can carry out the kinds of operations which are basically counterinsurgency. And if we lose the hearts and minds, dare I use that phrase, of the people, then our task is going to be incredibly difficult and we can't afford to lose this.

BUCHANAN: All right. But, Senator, your voice seems to be almost a single voice crying in the wilderness. We hear very little echo of the call for more American troops in Iraq from Congress. We hear from the American people, half of them believe we ought to start moving out and move out more rapidly. Almost no one says more troops ought to be sent in. Do you believe the president of the United States has alerted the American people and informed them and rallied them to understand that this is going to be a long, hard, bloody struggle and it may very well take one or two more divisions to win this thing? MCCAIN: I don't believe that the president for a period of time was as forthcoming as I would like to—for him to have been. When the Al-Rashid Hotel is rocketed while the deputy secretary of defense is there and it's called a sign of progress, then that's not right. In the last several days, the president has been very strong in his comments about our commitment and the necessity that we see it through and it's going to be difficult. I think he has to keep repeating that message. And could I say again, Pat, also along with the statistics you cited, the American people still, a vast majority of them believe we did the right thing and a majority of the American people I believe if told what the challenge is will support what's necessary. PRESS: Senator, your comments imply at least a criticism of the man who is currently in charge of operations in post-War Iraq. Do you still have confidence in Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld?

MCCAIN: I'm a great admirer of Secretary Rumsfeld. He's part of the president's team. I support him. When I came back in August, Bill, I said, look, these people on the ground are telling me things are going to get a lot worse unless we do something different. And in August I said we needed more of the kind of troops that I just described. Things have gotten a lot worse since August. Secretary Rumsfeld disagreed with me then and apparently according to what Pat just said and what I read he disagrees with me now. But I—by the way, Joe Biden has called for more troops. I'm—I may not be the lone ranger, but I agree with Pat there aren't too many of us.

PRESS: Well and as you say, it's pretty clear, Senator, and I would agree that things on the ground are not as good as the administration has been saying, but the man in charge of the post-war plan in Iraq was Rumsfeld. The man in charge now is Rumsfeld. He's obviously not doing the job. Wouldn't it be better for him to get out of there?

MCCAIN: No. Look, things go bad in wars. I was watching a thing last night about the Korean War. One of the great blunders in history was committed by General MacArthur when he refused to accept the evidence that the Chinese were coming (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But the American military adjusted. That's why wars are the last resort. You have to adjust and we have made some adjustments. I think we need to make a lot more, including, by the way, giving the government of Iraq, not the security requirements because half-trained Iraqi solders can't do the job, but giving the government of Iraq back to the Iraqi people as quickly as possible. BUCHANAN: Senator McCain, there's another requirement of victory. If this is as serious on the global scale—it's a different kind of war as—than Vietnam and that is if you will a certain measure of Charchelean (ph) leadership, a call to the American people for, is this going to cost blood, sweat, toil and tears. And to be honest, I haven't seen that indication that the president is going in that direction at all. Every indication we get here is that the president seems to be wanting to turn this over to the Iraqis, politically and militarily as quick as possible and bring our troops out so very few are getting killed next year. Do you think he's got to go tell the American people that things are not going as well as we've been saying?

MCCAIN: I think he did the day after the Al-Rashid bombing. I think he's made some very strong statements about how difficult it will be. Now, whether the Defense Department and administration policies are reflecting that by this plan to reduce troops further without signs of significant progress may contradict that. But I do believe the president is starting to say—to tell it like it is and the leaking of Rumsfeld's memo, perhaps by Rumsfeld...

BUCHANAN: Right.

MCCAIN: ... indicate that there is a recognition that it's a—quote—"long, hard slog." PRESS: When we come back, should the media be allowed to film the coffins of fallen soldiers? We'll ask Senator John McCain about the Pentagon's ban next. BUCHANAN & PRESS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PRESS: And we're back with Senator John McCain talking about the situation in post-war Iraq. Senator, one of your colleagues, Senator Zell Miller, as well as Congressman Charlie Rangel have said that the answer right now is we need to reinstitute the draft in order to get the forces we need, to buttress our forces in Iraq. Are you ready to join the call?

MCCAIN: I'm not Bill because the draft would bring young men and women into service and give them a short amount of training. The kind of military men and women we need today requires extensive training, intensive technological capability that's don't lend themselves to the draft. And we don't have to expand the military by a lot. But I do believe we need to expand the Army and the Marine Corps by a couple of divisions probably each. Personnel costs being the most expensive part of any defense budget. But we are putting an incredible strain on the Guard and Reserves. The Guard and Reserve men and women will serve. They will fight. They're patriotic and wonderful young men and women. But the question is, is will they stay in if they are continued to call to serve (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with which they are being deployed.

PRESS: Senator, General Wesley Clark made a speech—gave a speech today in which he outlined the steps he thinks are necessary to get things under better control in post-war Iraq, saying first we ought to end the monopoly on occupation, bring in some other forces, make it a NATO force, develop the right force to win a guerrilla war—you said something like that just a couple of moments ago—and give Iraqis a greater stake in reconstruction. Sound like General Clark has got a better plan than George Bush? MCCAIN: No, but I—on the first point, which is probably the most critical point, Bill, in fact, I think it will be a cold day in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when the French decide that they're going to send troops to Iraq. And as you know, in NATO, one country, a member of NATO can veto any NATO activity. I'm very happy that NATO is in Afghanistan and that's a very important mission they're carrying out. But the possibility of that is very remote.

Second of all, I would love to see more of the U.N. presence there. But because of the bombing of the U.N. Headquarters, as you know, the U.N. has withdrawn. The Red Cross has withdrawn. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that are so important to reconstruction have withdrawn. This is why this return of a stable situation in the Sunni Triangle is so critical. And by the way, I keep adding and I'm sorry to—being repetitious. There are good things happening in the north and the south.

PRESS: Right.

MCCAIN: It's not all bad.

BUCHANAN: All right. Senator, you were quoted in "USA Today" in your speech as saying it would be irresponsible to suggest—quote—"that it is up to the Iraqis to win this war." But if this is a fight for a democratic future for the Iraqi people, why do we have to fight this war for them? MCCAIN: That's a good point, Pat. What I was trying to say is the Iraqis militarily cannot win this war. But they have to be able to govern. The sooner they can govern the country and take on responsibilities, you and I may like a 15 percent flat tax, but I think the Iraqi government ought to make that decision. So the government ought to take over. But the military side, the level of sophistication as described by General Sanchez of these attacks and this kind of capabilities that the enemy is showing requires highly trained professional U.S. military, plus a significant intelligence capability which we don't have today, according to the experts. BUCHANAN: Senator, one quick question from me. How long, given your military assessment of what's going on, the escalation of attacks up from 12 a day to 36, the sophistication, coordination, how long if we do not move in new troops, do you think it will be before the United States can claim—quote—"victory" in Iraq and what does victory mean? MCCAIN: I think victory means, when you have a stable democratically elected government of the Iraqi people and of course, that—you can't have that unless you have a stable military situation. I think the next three to six months are very critical in this whole scenario because the Iraqi people don't want to go back to Saddam Hussein. They're not crazy. But many of them in the Sunni Triangle are losing any confidence that the United States can bring them what their ambitions are all about for themselves and their families. So I think we're in a very critical time. And we would probably know within the next few months. PRESS: Senator McCain, you've issued a call several times to the administration to level with the American people. The Pentagon has a policy—a new policy that will not allow any video shown of the flag draped coffins of the young men and women killed in Iraq to be shown on American television. Is that just covering up the bad news for the American people? Is that leveling with American people?

MCCAIN: I don't know what it is. I'm told...

PRESS: Do you agree with the policy?

MCCAIN: No, I don't. But I'm also told that that policy was implemented during the Gulf War and so, no, I don't agree with that. But again, I hear it's a policy of the previous administration, but I still don't agree with it no matter what administration did it.

PRESS: All right. Senator John McCain...

MCCAIN: Thanks Bill. Thanks Pat.

PRESS: ... good to have you here on BUCHANAN & PRESS.

BUCHANAN: Thank you Senator.

PRESS: And we welcome you back soon.

MCCAIN: Thank you.