Hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

Federal News Service

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE
 
SUBJECT: CHALLENGES FOR U.S. POLICY TOWARDS CUBA
 
CHAIRED BY: SENATOR RICHARD LUGAR (R-TN)
 
LOCATION: 419 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

WITNESSES: PANEL ONE: SENATOR MAX BAUCUS (D-MT);
 
PANEL TWO: ROGER F. NORIEGA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE;
 
R. RICHARD NEWCOMB, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF FOREIGN ASSETS CONTROL, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY;
 
PANEL THREE: JOSE MIGUEL VIVANCO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAS DIVISION, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH;
 
EMILIO T. GONZALEZ, SENIOR MANAGING DIRECTOR, GLOBAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, TEW CARDENAS;
 
BERNARD W. ARONSON, MANAGING PARTNER, ACON INVESTMENTS, LLC
 
BODY:
SEN. ENZI: -- (cross talk) a statement. And I thank you for holding this hearing and I thank you for your comments, and also the comments of the senator from Florida. To your list of things that need to be done, we probably need to have some kind of provision so that if we do catch people that have escaped from Cuba, we don't send them back to Cuba but perhaps find some country that would be willing to harbor them to as an alternative.

But for my statement, there's an old saying that I think we're all familiar with that fits the theme of this hearing pretty well, that says that even though it isn't always possible to change the whole world, you can always use what influence you have on whatever is before you. Today we have before us our continued review and discussion of our policy about Cuba. The title of our hearing is "Challenges to U.S. Policy Toward Cuba." We'll be taking a look at the challenges to our current policy that come from within our own country, and those that come from without; most notably from Castro and his own policies.

There is no question that the behavior of Castro and the Cuban government has presented a strong challenge to our policy for Cuba for many years. In a word, his conduct has been deplorable. He's refused to provide the most basic of human rights to his people. He has refused to allow his people the right to exercise the most basic of human rights and freedom. He tries to do everything he can to control what the people of his country see and hear. He also tries to make the United States his scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in his country, and his people always seem to believe him. But who can blame them? Who can they ask or turn to for another opinion? Most of them have never known anything else but Castro, and when he does something wrong we punish him in ways that serve more to punish the people of Cuba than Castro himself.

There is another level of challenges to our policy with Cuba. They come from within our own government, from the administration and from the members of Congress who believe, as I do, that the time has come for a change in our policy toward Cuba, beginning with just the travel policies. When we introduced the Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act on April 30, 2003, we were prepared for the questions that were soon to follow. We presented our case fairly and pointed out the need for change based on a philosophy my father used to call "if you keep on doing what you've always been doing, then you're going to wind up with what you've already got." Forty years of "already got."

He was right. It's foolish to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results every time. In fact, if we were to let someone impartial help us out with this one, he'd ask us what our policy toward Cuba was and when we explained it he'd just ask one simple question: is it working for you? Is it getting you what you want? That's when we'd have to get it and realize why we must change our policy with Cuba, because our current policy isn't working. In fact, it hasn't been working for a very long time, for us or for the people of Cuba, and it's driving other countries to help Cuba. It's not widening the gap, it's narrowing it for him. Brazil just extended $400 million in credit.

The curious thing is why it has taken us so long to figure that out. Clearly, we need a different policy, one that goes further than embargoes, one that replaces the needlessly restrictive travel policy with one that not only works but encourages increased communication between our people and the people of Cuba, one that offers the Cuban people a chance that their human rights might increase in the process. We now have 29 senators supporting the Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act. While this hearing is not going to formally address this issue, I don't think there is any denying that it's an important part of the mix.

The greatest resource we have for change and for promoting change in other countries is for our people to travel there. I like to think of our people as ambassadors for freedom. When people in other countries have a chance to interact with their own people and come to know them, they'll realize that the great gift that freedom is and how it could change their lives if only their government would permit its expression. With policy changes and people-to-people, we project a fear that freedom of communication will pull the wool over American eyes; that we won't be able to see the lie of Communism. That goes against history.

If we're truly serious about brining change to the Cuban government, we would promote every policy option we can to ensure that change comes from within Cuba. Our ambassadors of freedom can help do that by increasing Cuban people's idea of what is possible for them to achieve, and to be as a nation. That's how we brought down the Berlin wall. Not by closing everything off. There was a time when we thought we could close our eyes to the problems of the rest of the world and just live our lives in the safety and security of our borders. We then learned the harsh lessons of what happens when you refuse to get involved in the problems of the rest of the world.

As we've all heard, those to whom much is given, much is expected. There's no question that we have all been given much. We are truly blessed to call ourselves American citizens. There's also much expected of us from around the world. Much is also expected of us by the people who live on an island less than 100 miles from our shore. We must not and will not ignore their expectations. We will also not ignore our responsibilities to our neighbors.

Thank you again for holding this hearing.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
SEN. ENZI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm one of the fortunate senators who has the ability, because of low populations in the state, to talk to almost all of my constituents, which of course would include all of my Cuban constituents. And they keep raising questions for me and that's what led to me working on the travel -- this travel bill. And I'm really disturbed at some of the actions that our government is taking. Now, I understand that Castro arrested and imprisoned the 75 dissidents and that that's wicked and wrong. There isn't anybody that doesn't think that that I know of. Probably everybody in Cuba as well, except Castro.

But we made some policy changes and some of them didn't necessarily have to do with that imprisonment. One of the things that I'm concerned about is why we've changed -- I'd like the inside story on why we've changed the travel policy, specifically as it deals with people to people?

MR. NORIEGA: The particular regulations that we promulgated making some changes in the travel licensing requirements was pretty narrow. It was for nonacademic educational exchanges; in other words -- or exchanges that weren't in the context of academic study. They might be educational, but because -- but in point of fact they took the nature increasingly of tourism. You know, you would see -- we received mail from people complaining about, look at this brochure. It's a "go see the" -- "go participate in Mojito tours of Cuba," and it's going to be called an educational exercise. It was sort of a summer break in Cuba, and that was inconsistent with our policy. But I want to be very clear, Senator, that we do want to continue educational travel of an academic nature, cultural ties, humanitarian travel. As a matter of fact, I think --

SEN. ENZI: But didn't we specifically single out people to people and say, no more of that?

MR. NORIEGA: No, Senator. That was that one category of travel where there was a general license for that sort of travel, or we licensed that sort of travel. That was in a non-structured sort of education activity and folks who had been licensed in that way were abusing that opportunity, abusing that license and carrying out what was fairly obvious forms of tourism. Having said that --

SEN. ENZI: One of those licensees is from Wyoming that's now going to be excluded, and he's been taking groups over there for some time. And I asked him specifically about this thing about the tourists are kept in enclaves and they're not allowed to talk to average people and that they're shepherded around, and that sort of thing. And that hasn't been the case with his tours. They have to be very careful in instructing their people on how people that they talk to could get in trouble, but have encouraged them to talk to average citizens there; to just be careful on what they're saying. But they are by no means shepherded around by the whole time.

MR. NORIEGA: Sure.

SEN. ENZI: So how are you going to distinguish between the groups that have some true educational value there and are making a difference perhaps in the whole Cuban situation --

MR. NORIEGA: Well, there are --

SEN. ENZI: -- and the others?

MR. NORIEGA: There are other categories of travel that would be available -- remain available. We noted that 70 percent of these hotels were in tourist enclaves, and this fellow probably made a point -- conscious point of avoiding those and going to other accommodations that would be more out on the economy and open in Cuban society. I don't know the details of what sort of activity he -- what sort of operation he runs, and he could very well be eligible for some other form of specific licensing. But if you would ask him to communicate with either me or Mr. Newcomb, we can do what we can to try to accommodate some sort of a license where he could continue his work, assuming it was lawful within the confines of the U.S. law as approved by Congress three years ago.

SEN. ENZI: Okay, I appreciate that. Another area that I kind of -- you know, that I need more details on deals with the congressional -- I understand the congressional intent that was originally established with TSRA concerning the assistance to Cuban people through the trade of agriculture and medicine project -- products.

Can you explain the State Department's interpretation, how the intent has changed on that? Why we're not -- why we're doing something different in the last 10 months than we have before?

MR. NORIEGA: In terms of that one decision on -- that one regulation change? Or is there some -- I'm not familiar with any others -- any sort of change in the way we interpret it, other than this one area where I explained that we made a decision -- made a judgment that it was being abused, and that it wasn't consistent with travel. That's --

SEN. ENZI: Can you give me a little more detail on how that was being abused?

MR. NORIEGA: That -- are we talking about the travel? The non -- the education -- sort of nonacademic study sort of travel? Is that what you're talking about, Senator?

SEN. ENZI: No, actually not. We were doing some healthcare exhibitions in Cuba.

MR. NORIEGA: Oh, I see.

SEN. ENZI: Yeah.

MR. NORIEGA: Oh, no that's -- now we're --

SEN. ENZI: I changed subjects on you.

MR. NORIEGA: I got it. I got it. No, I apologize for that. In 2003 it is correct that we approved a couple of exhibitions that -- and actually before 2003 there were a couple of exhibitions that were licensed. The last time we denied a license, frankly in direct response to the crackdown, and we felt that we quite literally didn't want to do business as usual with the regime and be perceived as carrying on normal commercial exchange with the government right in the wake of the crackdown. Other governments have proceeded differently, but that is the policy that we believe makes sense for the United States.

SEN. ENZI: Have any of those other countries expressed any concern that maybe we're being too harsh in that area?

MR. NORIEGA: Not to me. The one concern I hear from other countries because of TSRA is that the Cuban government is using that cash only requirement as a basis to pay U.S. -- some U.S. exporters, and that's money that the Cuban government owes to other countries and other governments, and they're stiffing the other governments. Because our law requires that they pay cash, they're taking cash that they owe to other countries or other governments and paying to U.S. farmers and others, with the very explicit political intent of influencing the debate here in the United States. And, frankly, I'm glad that our farmers are getting that and not other farmers from other wonderful places in the world.

SEN. ENZI: I'll quickly ask one more question, if that's okay, and shift gears one more time. And that's to ask if you can tell me a product that isn't on the U.S. control list, meaning it has some military application, that Cuba can't get under our present policy? Not from us, but from other people? Are we really denying them anything, other than what's on our military control list?

MR. NORIEGA: They can buy whatever they want and develop whatever they want, I suppose, if Fidel Castro decided that that's where he wanted to put his resources. I would expect that that's the case. But we've maintained --

SEN. ENZI: Thank you.

MR. NORIEGA: It was the same with the Soviet Union when we maintained export controls on the Soviet Union. But we actually denied them that as a matter or principle and as a matter of making it more difficult for them to get certain products. But --

SEN. ENZI: Well, we've always had export controls, you know, to virtually every nation, including Great Britain.

MR. NORIEGA: Absolutely. Right.

SEN. ENZI: But not to the extent that we've had here, but it hasn't precluded them from getting anything except what's on the control list. Just a point that I wanted to make.

MR. NORIEGA: They pick it up from other countries, yeah.

SEN. ENZI: I thank the chairman.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
SEN. ENZI: Well, again, Mr. Chairman, I'd just thank you for holding this hearing. It's been very enlightening. I've learned a lot. I think there are some common threads there that could be worked on. Yes, there would be some changes in U.S. policy. Some of them are very subtle changes and I think would be welcomed by some of those other countries. I think the multilateral -- the obligation to work multilaterally is extremely critical. One of the bills that I've been working on for about five years is our Export Administration Act, and one of the things that we realize is that every country in the world makes most of the products that we have on some of our lists. And we spend a great deal of money trying to control those items that they can get from anywhere, and those items could be limited if we had some multilateral agreements. But we've given up on multilateral agreements.

We've mentioned this afternoon South Africa several times, and last month I had an opportunity to be in South Africa and I got to meet with a fella by the name of Ahmed Kathrada, who was one of the people imprisoned at the same time as Nelson Mandela -- tried with him, imprisoned with him. He is the one who edited "The Long Walk Home" and helped get it smuggled out of there. And it was very touching for him to mention that a copy of all of his letters and memoirs are going to be at the University of Michigan, because they were the first entity in the world to promote sanctions against South Africa, and then the United States joined in that.

But one of the keys is we weren't the only country, and that's the difference with Cuba. We're the only country and the rest of the countries are saying, "What do you think you're proving?" So we definitely need to have some multilateral action on this, and I think it can be achieved. And I think the wedge is also something that has been suggested by this panel, which is the actual bankruptcy of Cuba. As the other countries realize they're bankrupt and don't want to lose the investment that they have there, they might join us multilaterally on doing some things that would bring about some changes that would restructure the government and the finances there, to bring them out of bankruptcy.

So I really don't have any questions for this panel. I really appreciate the comments that you have and I'm glad that we have the full text. And I've noted some of those things, probably taken them out of the context to use them the way that I want to, but that's what we do around here. (Laughs.) So I thank you very much.

And I thank you, Mr. Chairman.