CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Interview

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REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): You know, I think from what we have seen so far, and particularly the lack of climate action, as well, I think adding to the severe lowering of our scope and scale in what we're seeking to do on ambition, I doubt it, frankly, in the current state of that proposal.

And I think one of the things that's really important to communicate is this isn't just $1.7 trillion. This is about an overall investment spread out anywhere between eight and 10 years, which is a very, very low amount of money. It's not going to create the millions of union jobs that we need in this country, particularly to recover from the pandemic.

And it's not going to get us closer to meeting our climate goals, which are crucially important at this point in time.

BASH: As you well know, Democrats have three votes to spare in the House. So, if the White House comes to you, if Democratic leaders come to you

and say, this is the best you're going to get right now, would you and fellow progressives still say no to this?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I think the thing is, is that this isn't the best that we can get.

And I do think that we need to talk about the elephant in the room, which is Senate Democrats which are blocking crucial items in a Democratic agenda for very -- I think, for reasons that I don't think hold a lot of water.

And for folks saying, OK, we -- where are you going to get these 50 votes, I think we really need to start asking some of these Democratic senators where they plan on getting 60 votes. These 10 Republican senators that there is a theory that we're going to get support for that out there, I think, is a claim that doesn't really hold water, particularly when we can't even get 10 senators to support a January 6 commission.

BASH: Yes. No, I hear you generally speaking.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: And so I think that the argument that we...

BASH: But on this particular bill, they have five. And my understanding is that it is possible, if everything comes together, they could get 10, so just on infrastructure.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Mm-hmm.

Yes. kill I think then the question we have to make is that there is a fork in the road, which is, do we settle for much less and an infrastructure package that has been largely designed by Republicans in order to get 60 votes, or can we really transform this country, create millions of union jobs, revamp our power grid, get people's bridges fixed and schools rebuilt with 51 or 50 Democratic votes?

And I think the argument that we need to make here is it's worth going it alone if we can do more for working people in this country. You know, with 50 votes, we have the potential to lower the age of Medicare eligibility, so that more people can be covered and guaranteed to their right to health care, as opposed to 60 votes, where we do very, very little, and the scope of that is defined by a Republican minority that has not been elected to lead.

BASH: So, let's talk about one of the specific issues that is blocked in the Senate right now, and that is voting rights.

The House, including you, passed expansive voting rights legislation. That was back in March. Senate Democrats can't force a vote on it because Virginia Senator -- West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin doesn't support that particular bill. He also doesn't support what you're suggesting, which is gutting the filibuster.

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I want our viewers to listen to something that you said about all that this past week.

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OCASIO-CORTEZ: H.R.1 stands up against lobbyists and dark money.

And I would reckon to think that this is probably just as much a part of Joe Manchin's calculus as anything else, because, when it comes to this bipartisan argument, I got to tell you, I don't buy it.

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BASH: What exactly did you mean by that? Are you saying Joe Manchin's opposition is because he wants to keep political donations flowing?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I think that -- I think that, when we talk about opposition to H.R.1 being just about voting rights, we aren't telling the entire story.

H.R.1 has sweeping lobbying reforms. And I believe that we have the influence of big money that impacts not just one party, but both parties in the United States Congress. And I do believe that that old way of politics has absolutely an influence in Joe Manchin's thinking and the way he navigates the body.

I mean, the way -- the things that he cites, like this, I think, romanticism of bipartisanship is about an era of Republicans that simply do not exist anymore. And I also believe that the opposition to big money and dark money -- you have the Koch brothers and associated organizations from the Koch brothers really doing victory laps about Joe Manchin's opposition to the filibuster.

I think that it's pretty open that these groups exert a lot of influence, as much as -- and as much influence as they can on members of Congress. And I think that -- that the older-school way of accepting the role of lobbyists in Washington absolutely has a role in Joe Manchin's thinking.

BASH: I want to ask about what's going on at the Justice Department.

The attorney general, Merrick Garland, gave a speech on Friday talking about protecting voting rights. But the Justice Department, again, the Biden Justice Department, is under fire on a number of fronts, gag orders against companies and journalists that are continuing, defending anti-LGBTQ laws, trying to step in on a lawsuit against President Trump and shielding some Russia investigation information from public.

What do you make of all that?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes.

And in addition to all of the suits that you had just mentioned, the Biden DOJ also decided that they were going to pursue action on arguing in court for U.S. citizens in -- who reside in Puerto Rico to have lower eligibility for Social Security than their counterparts, U.S. citizens in the continental United States, essentially advancing second-class citizenship and continuing second-class citizen citizenship for Puerto Ricans on the island.

And so I think the actions of Biden's DOJ has been extremely concerning. And it's not just on the actions on gag orders, which is also extremely concerning, but, across the board, I don't believe that -- while I believe that the emphasis on voting rights is appreciated, we aren't seeing a transformational DOJ that I think people have been looking forward to.

And that is something that I -- that deserves a lot more questions.

BASH: I want to ask about top Democratic House leaders, and a dozen of your Jewish Democratic colleagues issued a statement criticizing your friend and colleague Ilhan Omar, congresswoman from Minnesota, for what some Democrats said was a -- quote -- "offensive and misguided" remark that they say equated the U.S. and Israel with Hamas and Taliban, terrorist organizations.

She later clarified, saying she was not doing that.

But I want you -- our viewers to read what you tweeted in response. You said: "Pretty sick and tired of the constant vilification, intentionally -- intentional mischaracterization, and public targeting of Ilhan Omar coming from our caucus. They have no concept for the danger they put her in by skipping private conversations and leaping to fueling targeted news cycles around her."

First question is, what exactly did your fellow Democrats mischaracterize? And are you saying that they are to blame for some threats against her?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I think -- I believe that her comments were absolutely mischaracterized.

She was very clearly speaking about the ICC investigations, which name these four actors in two suits. And they name them in context of events that happened in Afghanistan with the United States and the Taliban and in Palestine with Hamas and the government of Israel.

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And I think that is to say that and I believe that to assert that she was acquainting these two entities, when she was speaking about the ICC investigations, in which all four parties are being investigated for -- investigated for instances of war crimes, I believe to assert that they -- that this was acquainting these two, I believe, was not -- it was not a generous interpretation whatsoever.

And we know that these very intense news cycles, which, by the way, started, this whole hubbub started with right-wing news outlets taking what she said, out of context. And when we feed into that, it adds legitimacy to a lot of this kind of right-wing vitriol.

It absolutely kind of increases that target. And as someone who has experienced that, it's very difficult to communicate the scale and how dangerous that is.

And so I think, as Speaker Pelosi said, we are putting this behind us, and I believe that we will ultimately come together as a caucus.

BASH: Before I let you go, I want to ask about the Supreme Court.

They're poised to hear several blockbuster cases in the next term, voting rights, gun control, abortion.

Your fellow Democrat Mondaire Jones says 82-year-old Justice Stephen Breyer should retire, so that President Biden and Senate Democrats can fill his seat with a younger liberal successor. Do you think that Justice Breyer should step down after this term?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I believe -- I believe Representative Jones has a point.

And we have had very difficult experiences with making, I believe, the opposite mistake. And especially if Senate Democrats are not going to pass reforms on H.R.1, we cannot rely solely on a wish of winning elections, particularly in the Senate, when voting rights are under attack in Georgia, Arizona, and Texas, across the country.

And if we're not going to pass H.R.1, with the preemptive clauses that can roll some of that -- voter suppression attacks back, yes, I believe that we should protect our Supreme Court, and that that should absolutely be a consideration.

BASH: So, just to be clear, you do think that Justice Stephen Breyer should retire at the end of this term?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: I -- it's something I would think about, but I would probably lean towards yes.

But, yes, you're asking me this question, so I would just -- I would give more thought to it, but I'm inclined to say yes.

BASH: OK. After you give more thought to it, give me a call. We will make sure to get that on the air.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Absolutely.

BASH: OK.

Thank you so much for joining me this morning. I appreciate it.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Thank you so much. Of course. Thank you, Dana.

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