MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: I think Ronald Reagan would have said, those people are awful. Ronald Reagan would have sat down with the guy and talked to him, and found out his situation. Now, maybe he wouldn"t have handled it the way a Democrat would, but I don"t think he would have been that dismissive of that guy"s plight. He wasn"t faking it. That guy had a problem, health-wise.

Your thoughts?

REP. MIKE PENCE ®, INDIANA: Well, I--I think it"s despicable. A man sitting on the street with Parkinson"s, to be berated by that, in that kind of a setting, is--I think that is awful. And I would denounce that in the strongest terms.

But I do think it gives you a glimpse, Chris--not to excuse that behavior, but I had a constituent ask me at a town hall meeting out this week--he said, out in Washington, D.C., do they know how upset we are? Do they know how angry are that they continue to drive this government takeover of health care and now begin to twist the rules of the House and Senate into a pretzel to pass it?

And I--I had to tell them, I--I--I didn"t think so. I didn"t think the majorities out here in the House and Senate or the White House really just understand just how frustrated the American people are. But it doesn"t excuse that kind of behavior for a second.

MATTHEWS: What did you think of that guy"s idiom when he said, "We don"t give handouts over here"? Was that sort of in a reference to fact we in America, as opposed to socialist Europe? I was trying to figure out what that meant, over here.

It sounded like, in this country, we don"t do it the other countries do did. So, your thoughts on that?

PENCE: Yes, I don"t--I don"t--I really don"t know what he was talking about. Frankly, it just seemed--it seemed very mean to me, quite frankly.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PENCE: And I--I--I just would share with your revulsion at that kind of a confrontation.

You know, I saw that kind of stuff during the demonstrations over the war in Iraq. You know, people would, you know, act in ways that I didn"t think reflected well on them or really reflected the character of this country. And that looks like another one of those cases.

MATTHEWS: We"ve got a new NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll out. As you know, these are pretty darn nonpartisan. We got--it finds that a 14 point swing has occurred favoring Republicans on handling health care. Look at this, 35 percent now approve of Republicans" handling of the health care. It"s not exactly going through the roof, but it"s a lot better than it was. It was in the 20s. Fifty nine percent disapprove. But back in January, as I said, it was 26 percent positive, 64 negative.

So in this game of difficulty, where nobody"s loved in politics, it looks like you"re picking up a beating or two.

PENCE: Well, I don"t know that Republicans are picking up. I think it"s a combination of two things. I really do believe the public is rejecting this massive government takeover of health care.

And I think, as a result of what happened at the Blair House, what happened at our retreat, I think the public is starting to take a look at Republican ideas. You know, the idea that we ought to allow Americans to purchase health insurance across state line, the idea of medical malpractice reform, covering pre-existing conditions with the savings from that.

I don"t know if it"s being attracted to Republicans, as much as

being attracted to Republican ideas that I believe--if we can scrap this

bill, I believe we could achieve some incremental, step-by-step reforms, on

a bipartisan basis, that would reflect those ideas and be broadly accepted

by the American people, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Why didn"t you do that when you had President Bush--I mean, President Bush--the second President Bush--and you had control of both houses? You speak positively of the need for reform. And yet when the Republicans controlled both houses and the White House, you never do this stuff.

PENCE: Well, and I would--but I would add that what we did do was in the wrong direction.

MATTHEWS: But you didn"t do the things you just ran through.

PENCE: Yeah, well--

MATTHEWS: But you didn"t do what you said you would do. It"s would have could, should of, it sounds like to a lot of Democrats. Every time a Democrat tries to do health care reform, you guys, very logically, come along and say, here"s a more modest package. But you never offer that more modest package when the Democrats aren"t in power, because you don"t have to do it.

PENCE: Well, no, actually, I think Republicans actually kind of doubled down on big government solutions. I was one of the 25 Republicans who opposed the prescription drug entitlement on the floor of the Congress during that famous three-hour vote.

Frankly, the Republicans didn"t bring solutions based on limited government and free market alternatives to the public to deal with this. We did the big government solutions. I think it"s part of the reason Republicans were shown the door 2006.

But this new government takeover of health care takes the big government ideas of the Bush administration on health care and puts them on steroids. And i think--I think the public, apart from, you know, liberal Americans, who are entitled to their opinions--I think decisive majorities across this country are rejecting the big government approach.

They know it"ll result in more deficit and debt and higher taxes. And they want us to do the incremental, step-by-step approach, that gives them in more power, it gives them more economic freedom. And I think we could do that if we stop the bill, Chris.

MATTHEWS: OK, well, you may get a chance, if they stop the bill. Then maybe you can push the Republican proposals for the first time. Thank you very much, Congressman Mike Pence, for joining us from Indiana. He"s on the House--he"s up there on the House rights now.

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