CNN The Situation Room-Transcript

Interview

CNN The Situation Room-Transcript

BLITZER: The White House spokesman says Congress must ask itself whether it's trying to create a political spectacle. And he says that if the Democrats reject this latest White House proposal, all bets are off. That if the Democrats go ahead and issue subpoenas, the White House will withdraw its offer.

So what do Democrats make of this White House ultimatum? I asked Senator Chuck Schumer, who serves on the Judiciary Committee for a response?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The bottom line is this. To paraphrase "The Godfather," they have made us an offer we can't accept.

BLITZER: The president is basically saying you want a show trial.

SCHUMER: Absolutely not. We just want to get to the bottom of it. And we can -- if they want to set some parameters on how these hearings ought to go, I think we'd welcome that.

But certainly let them show their good faith by saying we're willing to do transcript and oath, even if it's in private.

BLITZER: Well, so far they're saying that's not going to happen. What do you do next, if they say absolutely, positively no? And yesterday the president said he's willing to go to the mat on this.

SCHUMER: Well, presidents usually do. But remember, there's tremendous pressure on them. Many Republican senators, congressmen and leaders have been very upset with what's happening. The public is overwhelmingly on our side. And that may be their starting position.

I hope it's not their final position, because it's an untenable position. And I think just about all the commentators and editorials except those on the hard right think that the White House has not given us a very fair offer.

BLITZER: The House...

SCHUMER: We want a fair offer. BLITZER: The House Judiciary Committee today said they're going to go ahead with a subpoena. They haven't done it yet. Your committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee, I take it, is supposed to act tomorrow.

What's going to be -- what's going to be the decision?

SCHUMER: Yes, well, both houses are going to authorize the use of subpoenas, but not issue them. And I think the White House has said that it's the issuing of the subpoenas that they hoped wouldn't happen.

So I would hope we can negotiate. I would hope that we could come to a fair agreement. Our goal -- get out the facts, get to the bottom of it. But let me just give you two examples of what they are trying to prohibit.

First, they want no transcript and no oath. So Karl Rove says black and somebody else says white. There is no way to prove the truth. There's no way even to prove what he said, except by people's recollections, which often differ. That's why we have transcripts in just about any -- even the most minor legal proceeding.

Let me give you another one. They don't want to give us any documents that are internal in the White House. So let's just say, and this is hypothetical, that Karl Rove said to Harriet Miers we have to get rid of Prosecutor Lam because she's working on a political case that makes us uncomfortable. But come up with an excuse.

And then Miers comes up with the excuse of immigration, sends an e-mail out to the Justice Department, oh, we're getting rid of Lam because of immigration. Well, we would get the second e-mail, but not the first one.

BLITZER: Well, is there an underlying crime here that you -- you're suspicious of?

SCHUMER: Well, I don't know if it's a crime. What has happened, and it has happened already, there is so much out there about the politicization of the U.S. attorneys that that strikes a severe blow. Remember, Wolf, people -- we need people in America to believe, as they always have, that the law is issued without fear or favor, that we're not some Third World country where some person can shift the law for his or her own political or economic gain.

And when U.S. attorneys believe that they were fired because they wouldn't prosecute a case that would benefit the White House or that they would prosecute a case that would hurt the White House, we have a serious problem.

So whether it's a crime or not, and it's too early to tell because we don't have the evidence, it has certainly done some real damage to the view rule of law without fear or favor.

BLITZER: You're being slammed by some Republicans, including Arlen Specter, who was here in THE SITUATION ROOM on Monday; Senator John Cornyn of Texas, another member of the Judiciary Committee; that you have a partisan stake. You're the chairman of the committee that's trying to get Democrats elected to the Senate, and that you're no objective observer. You're trying to politicize this.

What do you say to those Republican colleagues who want you to give up your political hat if you want to be serious about investigating this judicial matter?

SCHUMER: Well, every one of us wears both a political hat and a substantive hat. When you run for office, you do, et cetera.

But let me make three points here. First, our investigation is totally focused on the executive branch, the Justice Department and the White House. And so we have nothing to do with any wrongdoing of legislators, senators or congressmen, and that's up to the Ethics Committee. So there's no conflict whatsoever because we're focused on the executive branch.

Second, when names of legislators, congressmen, senators, were brought up, it wasn't by me or any other Democrat on the Judiciary Committee. It was brought up by the U.S. attorneys. So the idea that we're doing this to go after them, we didn't -- when I started this investigation, under Senator Leahy's leadership, we didn't know where it would lead. We didn't know anybody else would be involved.

And third and finally, the M.O. of the White House and their allies, not just in this investigation, but in every other, is when they get bad news, when they get things they don't like, they start calling names at the bearer of the bad news instead of solving the problem.

So I would ask my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, stop the name-calling. It's not going to deter us or divert us. This is too important. But, rather, join us so we can get to the bottom of this in a fair and non-partisan way.

BLITZER: Senator Schumer, we've got to leave it there. Thanks very much for coming in.

SCHUMER: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Chuck...

SCHUMER: Nice to talk to you.

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