MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Foreign Affairs

Interview

MATTHEWS: What struck me was the part about Vietnam. I mean, people think of you as a veteran of Vietnam. You were shot down. You`ve been through it all. The resentment you talked about in the book is toward the government, Lyndon Johnson in that case, who had ridiculous rules of engagement, restricted targeting so that the guy flying the plane, you, were endangered, and Hanoi was safe.

Do you -- does that -- well, talk about that, and then I`d like to know how it reflects on your thinking about what`s going on today.

MCCAIN: Well, very briefly, we watched Russian ships coming into the port of Haiphong, offload surface-to-air missiles, put them on trucks, take them miles and miles and miles up roads and then be put in place, and we were not allowed to go after them. And then they were shot at us. One of them shot me down. And that was terribly frustrating.

The targets were decided, literally, in the Oval Office as to which ones would be hit. They had this idea that if they -- McNamara, Johnson, Rusk, et cetera -- that if they gradually escalated, then it would squeeze the North Vietnamese and they would come to the bargaining table.

Well, it had the opposite effect. You know, the Vietnamese -- Well, look, we stood up against that. We stood up -- and so we saw a gradual escalation in the South. You know, first it was some perimeter guards and then it was submarines and then it was -- you know, and it got built up and built up.

But we lost the war, and that`s just a fact. And so I`m seeing this same kind of gradualism in this present White House, and I`m also seeing a micromanagement from the White House, as well, and it`s really disturbing.

MATTHEWS: In your book, you talk about how the other side, in that case, the Viet -- no, the North Vietnamese -- would adapt. Every time we escalated or we increased our response, they`d build (ph) more AAA fire. They`d have more SAMs. They would -- so that -- as the more -- the slower we went in fighting the war, the faster they went.

MCCAIN: Yes, and...

MATTHEWS: Is that happening over there now with the ISIS people?

MCCAIN: And now what -- and now what we`re seeing is a gradual escalation. The president just announced 1,500 more. And mark my words, he will have to announce some more within a certain period of time because no military strategist that I know believes that what we`re doing now will defeat, degrade and defeat ISIS.

In other words, in the words of former secretary Panetta and former secretary Gates, both of them -- I was there last weekend -- that the capabilities and the strategy does not match up with the goal of degrading and ultimately destroying ISIS.

And one other thing that I need to get off my chest, Chris, if I could. We`re telling the Free Syrian Army we`re going to train them in Saudi Arabia and send them into the fight. Meanwhile, Bashar Assad is barrel- bombing them. He is intensifying his attacks on the Free Syrian Army, and we aren`t doing anything to inhibit Bashar Assad for doing that, the same guy that`s responsible for 200,000 deaths in Syria. That`s immoral!

MATTHEWS: So we have to fight both sides at the same time.

MCCAIN: I think you have to go after both, yes...

MATTHEWS: OK...

MCCAIN: ... if you want to defeat ISIS and do what the president also said, that Bashar Assad must go. Remember, he said that on numerous occasions.

MATTHEWS: I know.

MCCAIN: So right now, we are leaving -- giving Bashar Assad free rein to decimate the Free Syrian Army, and that`s what`s happening. They`re being slaughtered.

And by the way, some of them are crossing over to another extremist outfit because they`re not getting the help that we had promised them on many occasions. It is a serious, serious threat to the United States of America over time.

MATTHEWS: You write about this book -- you write in this book from the soldier`s point of view. This isn`t about the generals or the admirals.

MCCAIN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: This is about like this guy Joseph Martin.

MCCAIN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Unbelievable you found this guy who fought in the Battle of New York up in Long Island. He ends up fighting in Yorktown. He follows the campaign all the way through that year of...

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: He joins at 15. He joins at age 15.

MATTHEWS: And he somehow manages to stay in the war until the end.

MCCAIN: And almost starves to death.

One of the -- because the conditions -- we hear about Valley Forge and all that. The conditions, they were literally starving. And, by the way, also, we point out something that, frankly, I didn`t know much about. It was 30 years before they gave a pension to these soldiers. And he was very angry and bitter about it. And I`m...

MATTHEWS: Was it $90 a year or something?

MCCAIN: Something like that.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MCCAIN: But now, thank God, no matter how we feel about America`s involvement in these conflicts, we honor our veterans.

Just not that long ago, everywhere in America, we honored our veterans. And it is very uplifting to me, because you and I are old enough to recall the Vietnam veterans did not get the welcome home that they deserved.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MCCAIN: But they got later on -- but, later on, we have given the Vietnam veterans what they deserve.

Finally, one other point. One of the great things we do in America from each of these states is this Honor Flight. You have seen it. They land here and they take them down to the World War II memorial, the World War II veterans. It is so moving. It is wonderful.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the soldier, because I have heard recently from a friend of a friend that soldiers don`t like this boots-on-the-ground reference. Hey, we`re people. We`re G.I.s. We`re not just boots.

But look at what is going on right now. We`re talking about putting 1,500, as you said, more advisers in. But that`s not going to do it. So then the question is, will we put them out in companies, embedded with companies? Then they get captured. What are we going to do if one of our guys gets captured over there by ISIS and they start beheading these guys?

MCCAIN: I think it is -- I think it would be really terrible. But, as you know, ISIS is beheading American citizens. They just don`t happen to be in uniform, which really is...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Can we put with that? Can we, American people stand the idea of a uniformed soldier beheaded?

MCCAIN: Being captured.

MATTHEWS: Wouldn`t that just escalate this war to a fury?

MCCAIN: I think it would obviously complicate things because of the value that we place on American lives, no matter whether citizens or noncitizens.

But, look, nothing is for certain in warfare. And there is a great -- that`s why they call it the fog of war. But what we`re doing now, every military officer that I know outside of the present hierarchy believes that we need to -- what we`re doing will not achieve the goal.

MATTHEWS: What do you think we need to do, if you were commander in chief?

MCCAIN: Oh, the first thing I would do is a no-fly zone in Syria. I would treat Syria and Iraq the same. ISIS treats them the same.

I would give weapons to the Peshmerga. I would send more forward air controllers, special forces, some others, not divisions and that kind of thing. I would dramatically accelerate the arming and equipping of the Free Syrian Army, which you could do with a no-fly zone much more easily.

But I understand the American people do not want the massive influx of troops again. in fact, I think that would not be productive. But what we`re going to have to do is be a lot more involved. And to say ISIS in Iraq can be treated in one fashion, with one strategy, and ISIS in Syria with another, that`s crazy. And, by the way, the air -- air -- what we`re doing from the air now is absolutely minimal.

We`re talking about four or five strikes a day. In Desert Storm, there was 1,000 strikes a day.

MATTHEWS: What`s the hesitance about? Are we afraid of hitting hospitals, schoolkids?

MCCAIN: We don`t have the target information.

MATTHEWS: How do we get the target information without troops there?

MCCAIN: Because you have people on the ground. You have support air controllers on the ground.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Do we have -- how do we get them without Americans there?

MCCAIN: It would have to be Americans.

MATTHEWS: That`s risky.

MCCAIN: I agree. There is no good options. There is no good options.

MATTHEWS: Well, that sounds right.

Let me ask you about your party in this regard. Rand Paul, who appeals to people like me because he is pretty dovish, he referred to Hillary Clinton as a war hawk. What`s that make you?

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: It just seems odd we might have a hawkish Democratic candidate.

MCCAIN: I`m not sure if it`s in the dictionary.

MATTHEWS: No.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Could we have a hawkish Democratic candidate against a dovish Republican candidate? Is that too weird? You wouldn`t like that.

MCCAIN: Well, let me give you a -- good news from my standpoint.

And that is the McCain-Graham wing had some real victories, Joni Ernst, Sullivan in Alaska, Tom Cotton in Arkansas, and some others like in North Carolina and Georgia. So there are much more -- I hate to use the word -- the word is internationalists and then isolationists.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MCCAIN: And so I think we have strengthened our ranks.

And, by the way, ever since these beheadings, as you well know because you pay close attention, American public opinion has swung rather dramatically, which has changed some of...

MATTHEWS: I agree.

MCCAIN: I have seen the change in some of Rand Paul`s rhetoric.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: And, coming up, more of my interview with Senator John McCain as we moved on the path to war with nuclear Iran. Anyway, the White House is facing -- or racing against clock on a deal to stop Iran from making a bomb. We are going to hear what Senator McCain has to think about that, also what he says about stopping illegal immigration in this country, especially what he has to say about Hillary Clinton and what it takes to be president. Wait until you catch this commentary about his colleague Hillary Clinton.

Much more coming up with Senator McCain.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL and for the last, but not least of my interview with Senator John McCain, whose new book is called "Thirteen Soldiers."

We talked about whether Hillary Clinton would make a good president or not. That`s coming up in just a minute.

But I began by asking Senator McCain about the hot issue of the week, illegal immigration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about an issue you have been out front on, besides the issue about foreign policy -- and you are an internationalist - - this question of immigration reform.

You were one of the gang of eight. You were one of the Republicans who voted for the Senate bill, which I thought had teeth in it. And where are we at?

MCCAIN: And I have tried once before, as you might remember.

MATTHEWS: Well, Simpson-Mazzoli way back in `86.

MCCAIN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: They had a good bill, but it wasn`t enforced.This bill has got teeth in it. I keep telling my liberal audience it has got teeth in it. It says you can`t work here illegally after four years. You have got an I.D. card. You have to be who you say you are. What more do you want?

MCCAIN: You have to pay thousands of dollars in fees. You have to get in line behind everybody else.

MATTHEWS: What more does that right want?

MCCAIN: I don`t know, Chris, except that there is a legitimate concern about border security.

MATTHEWS: Well, can`t that be met?

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: It can be. And I believe it is done with technology and not so much with -- with personnel.

But if we could get 90 percent effective control of the border and 100 percent surveillance, which we could, situational awareness, then I think that that would ease the path to...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Yes. Yes.

Well, if Obama did that, from his end of the deal, from the progressive edge, liberal end...

MCCAIN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ... and the other side, would they be willing to give on eventual path to citizenship for people who have been 12 years?

MCCAIN: I believe that the majority of the members of the House of Representatives would approve a path to citizenship with a border security -- a secure border, and pay back taxes, learn English. Get in line behind everybody else.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

How about a majority of your caucus on the House side?

MCCAIN: I really believe that, if presented in the way that we can assure people -- you referred to Simpson-Mazzoli.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MCCAIN: We -- the reason why Simpson-Mazzoli failed was because we didn`t secure the border.

MATTHEWS: I know.

MCCAIN: And so if we could assure the American people, and no matter how conservative they are, that we have a secure border, I believe they would be really agreeable to moving forward with...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why can`t you be -- you ran against him, but why can`t you be the interlocutor here? Why can`t there somebody that stands up and says, Mr. President, you`re a reasonable man? I think you really do want reform. You`re not just here for the issue. And the other side, Boehner side really wants an issue. Why can`t they get in the room and hammer it out?

MCCAIN: I don`t know the answer to that.

But I do believe that there is a legitimate question now, with the president going to act, as to whether he wants a political result or whether -- which would help them in the 2016 election or not. My question to the president is, why couldn`t you wait and see what this new Congress does?

Give them some time, not a deadline, but some time. You will know whether they are going to be able to move forward or not. You don`t to have set a timetable. And see then. But, obviously, that is not going to be the case.

And in my home state, there is deep awareness and concern about border security. OK? But, still, 70 percent of the people in Arizona are for a path to citizenship.

MATTHEWS: Really?

MCCAIN: If we have a secure border.

(LAUGHTER)

MCCAIN: That`s their -- that`s the litmus test.

MATTHEWS: I don`t understand why grownups can`t get together. I think the Senate did the right thing, anyway, on this.

Let me ask you about 2016. Are you running again?

MCCAIN: I`m certainly leaning that way.

MATTHEWS: I think you`re running again.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, let me ask you about Hillary Clinton.

Would you think she -- this is obviously our headline question tonight. By the way, the book is "Thirteen Soldiers." It`s really a good read about our history. And I think it really does talk about the foot soldier, the regular guy out there. And all your resentments about our -- an experience, I think, in Vietnam are really healthy for people to read.

Let me ask you about this race. Do you think it is going to be -- do you think Hillary has got the competence to be president?

MCCAIN: Oh, I`m sure that whoever the American people select, I have to -- I would support that.

Do I think that she is good on foreign policy issues? I think it`s a -- this is a legitimate question. Look, it is well-known that Secretary -- Hillary Clinton and I have a good relationship. We have...

MATTHEWS: Well, don`t you agree on a lot?

MCCAIN: But -- yes, we do agree on a lot.

But I think it is a legitimate question if you said, Secretary Clinton, tell me a concrete accomplishment while you`re -- during your tour -- your tour as secretary of state, I think she may have trouble answering that.

MATTHEWS: You mean a lot of input, but not output?

MCCAIN: Well, she traveled to a lot of countries.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MCCAIN: She is a great representative of America, kind of a rock star status. She visited more countries than any other secretary of state.

But what concrete policy or decision or whatever it is that she -- was she responsible for?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MCCAIN: And I think she would have trouble answering that.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you the toughest question maybe of our current period, which is Iran. Last question.

Negotiations continue through the 20 -- 24th, I guess it is, next week. Oh, next week, yes. And do you think there`s any home for a deal that keeps them from having a weapon or anywhere near a weapon?

MCCAIN: I worry very much that the administration is so -- wants so badly a foreign policy success that I`m afraid that they may give up a -- make an agreement that is really bad, including thousands of centrifuges.

I`m very, very worried about that.

MATTHEWS: Do you think Iran is talking while it is building a bomb?

MCCAIN: Well, that`s been their history. That`s been their history throughout.

I would like to see it treated for what it really is. It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It looks like a treaty, it acts like treaty. Then the Senate of the United States should debate and ratify or not ratify.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much.

MCCAIN: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Thanks for your time, Senator.

MCCAIN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: Well, John McCain`s book is called "Thirteen Soldiers: A Personal History of Americans at War."

Again, our thanks to Senator John McCain.

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