CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Secret Service

Interview

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Republican congressman Jason Chaffetz of Utah is joining us. He's chairman of the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security.

Congressman, what is going on here?

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: I've got deep concerns that the president is not as safe as we want and need him to be. I've got questions about leadership, about protocol, and about the training at the Secret Service.

BLITZER: Where is your question of leadership, for example?

CHAFFETZ: Well, these incidents seem to be getting worse, not better. There are lots of redundancies, rings of security around the president and specifically around the White House. But to have such an epic failure from top to bottom really begs the question: why did they decrease the number of trainings that were going on at the same time that the House was actually appropriating even more money? Why did those trainings come down? What is the protocol?

Why is it that the White House -- I'm sorry, the Secret Service -- they issue a statement and said that the intruder, the guy who hopped the fence, had no weapon? Ends up he did have a weapon. Why is it that they said he stopped at the door, but our whistle-blowers are telling us he went much further into the White House? Why is it that they brag about -- I say brag, but they tout the idea that there is tremendous restraint by these officers? I want to see overwhelming force, repel anybody who is trying to get into the White House. I don't think that's good leadership.

BLITZER: What's shocking to me as someone -- I spent almost eight years covering the White House, going there almost every day during the Clinton administration. There were always fence jumpers. They jump over the fence, they run on the lawn, the dogs come, they arrest them, and that's that.

But someone actually got through the lawn, ran all the way to the front door on the north side of the White House. The door was unlocked. Got inside. And originally we thought that person was stopped right inside. But what you're saying, based on what you're hearing, that person not only ran through the White House, got into the East Room of the White House, where the president hosts state dinners.

CHAFFETZ: And to the doorway to the Green Room. And so the question is -- there's an audible alarm that's supposed to be there. One of our whistle-blowers has indicated that the audible alarm had been muted because the ushers thought it was disruptive and made noises.

And so it begs the question of leadership. Are we going to put security at the top, at the number one issue, or are there going to be some political considerations like making sure it doesn't get too noisy on the first floor there?

BLITZER: I'm still confused what are the rules of engagement? When can a Secret Service officer, either uniformed or not uniformed -- actually use force? They're all armed, basically. When can they shoot an intruder?

CHAFFETZ: Again, when the Secret Service puts out a statement saying that the officers showed tremendous restraint, I've got a problem with that. I don't want tremendous restraint. Safety and security of the president, the first family is priority one and securing the White House.

You don't know what this person has underneath them. In this day of ISIS and ISIL and terrorists and all this, you don't know if the person has an improvised explosive device, maybe a dirty bomb, some other thing.

What if there were 12 people came over the fence, then what would they have done? I want to see overwhelming force deter somebody. And when you have a situation where you have the apparent lax security, you're unfortunately going to invite more attacks. And that's the concern.

BLITZER: Is it true that the threats against this president, President Obama, that they're much more than previous presidents?

CHAFFETZ: Unfortunately, I think that is true. I've got to see some more solid stats. But the world situation, the historic nature of this president, he's under constant attack. There's a reason why we have such an elaborate security force surrounding the president and the first family. Great men and women who serve there, but they can never, ever, ever make a mistake. Ever! It just can't happen.

BLITZER: The Secret Service says they're not providing all this information because there's an ongoing investigation, and as a result they'll share the information down the road. I think sharing the information with Congress, with you.

CHAFFETZ: We're going to have a hearing tomorrow. I appreciate the director coming and answering the questions in the light of day. Just because something is embarrassing doesn't mean that it's classified. So it will be interesting to see the mix. I don't want to hear the director continue to say well, that's classified, it's classified, it's classified.

In the United States of America, we are self-critical. This is how we make things better, and this is why Congress needs to get involved.

BLITZER: If you don't learn from mistakes, you're bound to repeat those mistakes. You've got to learn the important lessons. Do you have confidence in the relatively new Secret Service director, Julia Pierson?

CHAFFETZ: I've got real questions for her. I know the president has expressed great confidence in the Secret Service, but I have some serious questions. Great men and women, but I question their training, I question the protocol, and I question the leadership.

BLITZER: But she's got a lot of experience there. But you think she comes from what, the same culture? Is that the problem? She really hasn't made many changes that you want to see? Is that what you're saying?

CHAFFETZ: Long-term, I think we need to evaluate after 9/11 when they moved Secret Service out of Treasury, put it into Homeland Security, made the director a Senate-confirmed position? Did that become too political? That's a long-term question; we won't answer that tomorrow. But a real question about the structure and how they make these decisions, the protocol. I would like to see more force, lethal force if necessary. If you can't put a dog or a person in between an intruder into the White House, then I would like to see lethal force. You just cannot let somebody get into the White House.

BLITZER: Congressman, I want you to stand by.

I want to continue the breaking news coverage. We'll take a quick break. Much more right after this.

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BLITZER: We're covering the breaking news. The man who jumped the fence, stormed the White House, overpowered an officer, made it further into the White House than we previously knew. This information comes from Congressman Jason Chaffetz, who's still with us.

Congressman, we spoke about that, and it's pretty alarming. But in 2011, shots are fired at the White House, in the residence. And for four days nobody knew that shots were fired at the White House? How could that happen?

CHAFFETZ: Well, what's concerning to me is we had a relatively young agent who was there. She heard what she thought were shots. She called it out, but somehow, it gets to a supervisor and the supervisor says, "No, no, just stand down." That's the word I heard was "stand down."

And that's of deep concern, because when you have somebody who hears shots fired, what is the protocol? What are the alarm bells that go off?

And then shortly thereafter, Secret Service finds a vehicle that had crashed and actually had some information in there that would lead you to believe that perhaps the two were connected. But again, that was dismissed. And it wasn't very far from the White House.

Then you had local law enforcement actually detain somebody who ended up being the person they were looking for, but they let him go because the Secret Service didn't put anything out over the bulletins. That person is then detained again in another setting. And again, nothing out from the Secret Service, so they let him go again.

It wasn't for four days that they figured out that the White House had taken seven rounds.

BLITZER: And that's only because somebody was -- a housekeeper at the White House was cleaning up and saw what looked like a bullet wound. And all of a sudden, they realized that shots had been fired at the White House.

CHAFFETZ: Maybe I'm just being a little naive. I thought that the Secret Service would at least make some rounds and walk around a little bit. Because anybody who would have walked up on that second floor of the residence would have noticed broken glass on the ground.

BLITZER: So what needs -- you're going to have a hearing tomorrow on this whole issue. The director of the Secret Service will be there. What needs to be done?

CHAFFETZ: Look, great men and women who are patriotic. They serve this nation. But questions about training, questions about protocol. What is it that is their true objective? I don't buy the idea, the notion that they're supposed to offer great restraint or tremendous restraint as the Secret Service touts. I don't think that's the right message.

I want the Secret Service to know we've got their back. You can never let something happen to the White House or the president. And if they have to take more aggressive measures, we've got their back.

BLITZER: Because you've heard all these reports that morale at the Secret Service, not good right now. You've heard that.

CHAFFETZ: Oh, yes, it's one of the worst in all of the federal agencies. Homeland Security is a haul (ph). But particularly there at the Secret Service. It's very demoralizing to have gone through all these incidents. They

had problems with their inspector general that hopefully has been cleaned up. The training levels have come dramatically down. They have pay issues. There are lots of things the Secret Service is dealing with. And then to pat somebody on the back for offering tremendous restraint, I don't think that's the message you want to be sending to all these agents out there.

BLITZER: No, clearly there are problems. But let's also not lose sight of the fact these men and women of the Secret Service, they do an excellent job. They risk their own lives to protect the president, the first family and others.

CHAFFETZ: Oh, absolutely. I mean, what they do day in and day out, I'm sure is somewhat mundane, and then all of a sudden, everything breaks loose. And I could not be more proud of the individual agents. But I worry that Director Pierson and the leadership there at the Secret Service is failing them. And I question again the training and the protocol.

How are we going to reward and recognize these people for the tough, tough work that they do? It's just not happening.

BLITZER: Well, I know you've got a hearing tomorrow. You're going to be grilling the director. We'll talk afterwards, if that's OK with you.

CHAFFETZ: Absolutely.

BLITZER: All right. Jason Chaffetz of Utah, thanks very much for joining us.

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