CNN "State of the Union with Candy Crowley" - Transcript: CIA Spying
Interview
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CROWLEY: Joining me now from the other side of Capitol Hill, House Intelligence Chairman Mike Rogers.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for being here.
I want to first pick up with the CIA, its admission that it, in fact, did spy and hack into the computers of the Senate Intelligence Committee, which, as you know, is one of two committees that is supposed to be watching what the CIA is doing.
There was an article in "The New York Times," an editorial actually, calling the CIA basically a lawless culture, saying this is not a couple of -- moving personnel around. This is about changing that culture and changing the CIA at its core.
At its core, does the CIA need to change?
REP. MIKE ROGERS (R-MI), CHAIR, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Oh, boy, that is -- that's a fairly serious charge for an agency that is trying to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons, that's the one that allowed the president to go out and say that the INF treaty with the Russians was in violation and oh, by the way, they're trying to stop innocent Americans from getting slaughtered by terrorists all around the world. I would be cautious to say that they're rotten to the core. I think that's -- I think it's wrong on the face of it. Think of it they've had -- this is the third CIA director in my four years as chairman, number one, and the narrative of this I think is very, very important. I think the narrative is quite wrong. This notion that they hacked into congressional --
CROWLEY: Well, they thought the Senate committee had something they shouldn't have and were trying to figure out how they got it.
ROGERS: I think it was wrong.
CROWLEY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Somebody needs to be held accountable.
CROWLEY: Who is somebody? That's -- should Brennan go?
ROGERS: Again, we're going through the review. Somebody made the decision to do it but remember these weren't Senate computers. These were CIA computers at the CIA. And so I think that you have to take that into consideration when you're walking through.
CROWLEY: We're kind of dancing on the head of a pin.
ROGERS: Well, no, in the sense that the -- it's a bit complicated but the story when briefed by the I.G. it makes you stop and pause and say, somebody needs to be held accountable. This is very serious but I don't think this is some conspiracy notion that they wanted to spy on either of our committees. Than would of course be intolerable, I think it would be a crime.
This says that somebody overstepped their bounds by trying to figure out what the coding was on who had access to CIA computers and CIA spaces, that's a little bit different than spying on congress, in my mind. Still a serious breach. It is a very serious breach of trust, but I don't think that this should be taken and extrapolated that every CIA officer out there is operating under this culture of lawlessness. As a matter of fact I argue they go the extra mile. They are absolutely concerned about making sure they follow the law especially when they're operating overseas and trying to do some really difficult work to keep America safe.
CROWLEY: In the end, though, they're responsible for the actions of their employees.
ROGERS: Right.
CROWLEY: I think that in some ways, as you've heard, there have been Democrats and Republicans calling for the resignation of John Brennan at the CIA.
Fairly or not, he's at the top, and the question here is, does the -- there's the NSA and all the things that it's been accused of doing, and sort of overstepping its bounds into the privacy of Americans. Now we have the CIA, and that they overstep their bounds, looking at the very committee that's supposed to be watching over the CIA and it gives you this impression that after 9/11 we just went way too far and that we have given up too much in exchange for the safety.
ROGERS: And that's why it's so important that the narrative be right, and it be based on the same set of facts. If we can all agree on the same set of facts we'll have an honest dialogue about what should the intelligence really look like and what should they be doing on behalf of the United States.
I think that it's tougher in the court of public opinion when the narrative is not based on data points. So if I listen to this debate without hearing the I.G. report, which I did this week, it sounds like they hacked into that into the Senate computers at the Senate offices, shocking. That's not what happened, and so it happened at the CIA with CIA computers. And what happened was, there was a difference in the setting that
allowed them to get certain information. The way they did it was, is, again, needs to be held accountable.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Yes.
ROGERS: However, the narrative is different. So that's why if you're -- if we're going to go after the agencies we need the support of the American public, let's do it in a way that addresses the facts of what happened, so that we don't get into this diminishing their role around the world. We need them at the top of their game.
And I'll tell you there's some really bright and professional people who are engaged in this activity, who are turning around, hoping America is standing with them...
CROWLEY: Right.
ROGERS: ...when they're risking their lives for their country.
CROWLEY: Quickly, I have to turn you to the border...
ROGERS: Yes.
CROWLEY: ...because Governor Perry talked earlier about historic record highs of people from Afghanistan, Syria, and Pakistan, coming across the Mexican-Texas border.
Are there historic highs, is that true, and if so, is there any reason to believe that these are people who would do us harm, that these are, in fact, terrorist-bound folks?
ROGERS: Well, again, as the Chairman of the Intelligence Committee, we noticed the very dangerous trend a few years ago when the Iranian Quds force, their external terrorist group, if you will, supported by the country of Iran, was planning an operation to use the southern border to infiltrate people into the United States to kill the Saudi ambassador.
So, clearly our enemies and our adversaries understand that it is a weakness. We have seen a trend of countries that we are very concerned about, a rise in individuals being apprehended at the border. The scary part about that is those are just the ones that get apprehended. So, a porous southern border is now on the advertising list for those who want to do nefarious activities entering the United States. Everything from criminal activity, gangs, we've seen that surely, human trafficking, and now you see these groups who, we believe, are connected in some way with terrorist organizations at least having the understanding and now you see the apprehensions behind it, doesn't take a rocket science to figure out that they figured out it is a weakness in our national security.
CROWLEY: Where the holes are.
ROGERS: Yes.
CROWLEY: Chairman Mike Rogers, thank you for coming.
ROGERS: Thanks for having me.
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