FOX "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript: IRS Targeting Controversy
Interview
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WALLACE: Congressman Levin, you know, you can say, well, that's just the Republican majority on Ways and Means. But the Treasury Department inspector general did a report that came out last May and he found that conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status were treated very differently from liberal groups.
Let's put up his findings: 30 percent of organizations with progress or progressive in their names were examined as possible political groups. And, therefore, not included -- would not have been considered for tax exempt status. But 100 percent of groups with Tea Party, Patriot or 9/12 in their names were examined.
Congressman Levin, 248 conservative groups were examined, but only 29 liberal groups. How do you explain that disparity?
REP. SANDER LEVIN, D-MICH.: Well, first of all, the inspector general left out the information in this report that there were liberal groups.
But let me try to explain what's happening here. You know, the document that we were given to look over, it said this on the top: "The following document contains confidential tax reform information and is being provided to you for review. Any subsequent unauthorized disclosure of the content is prohibited by law and is punishable by fine or imprisonment."
So, what happens is the chairman gives us the material. We can look at it for one day. Take no notes. And then we go into executive session and we violate the confidentiality of the taxpayers --
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WALLACE: Congressman Levin, that is a very interesting answer. It has nothing to do with my question. I'm asking you a specific question --
LEVIN: It does. It does.
WALLACE: No, it doesn't, sir. I'm asking you a specific question. How do you explain the fact that 30 percent of progressive groups were examined for their tax exempt status eligibility and 100 percent of conservative groups? How do you explain that?
LEVIN: I'll explain it. It also does what I said to respond to your question as to what's going on here.
More Tea Party groups and conservative groups applied for 501c4 status than other groups. In 2006, of the 501c4 organizations, only $1 million was spent on election campaign stuff. In 2012, $256 million and two of the organizations were Koch brother organizations and a third was Karl Rove. So, one half --
WALLACE: But, sir, it still does not explain -- you can say that there are more conservative groups. It doesn't explain why 100 percent of conservative groups were examined and only 30 percent of liberal groups. It doesn't matter if it was 10-3, it was 100 percent of the conservative groups, and 30 percent of the liberal groups.
How do you explain that?
LEVIN: Look, this is what the attorney general is looking into.
WALLACE: He's been looking into it for a year, sir.
LEVIN: The president called for an examination by the attorney general. They are looking into that. We should not disrupt that by essentially having a secret session.
WALLACE: But do you think the president disrupted it when he said there wasn't a smidgeon of corruption? Do you think that was right for the president to say?
LEVIN: No, he -- I'll tell you what he was talking about. The first hearing that we had, the chairman of the committee said there was a culture of corruption and administrative -- administration interference. There has been zero, zero evidence that the White House had anything to do with what happened.
WALLACE: The question has nothing to do -- the question has nothing to do with the White House. It had to do -- the question had to do with there is any corruption. He basically gave the IRS a clean bill of health when the investigation was still going on.
Let me -- but you bring up a good point. And I want to bring --
LEVIN: That is what is -- look.
WALLACE: That was the question asked by Bill O'Reilly at the Super Bowl. I watched the interview.
LEVIN: I know. I heard it. The corruption charge related way back to the administration and whether they were involved in this. There was an effort by the Republicans to tie the White House to this. There was zero evidence.
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WALLACE: Let me interrupt and ask --
LEVIN: He said there was zero evidence.
WALLACE: It's a fair question. Let me ask Congressman Boustany.
Congressman, do you have any evidence after a year of investigation that any official higher up in the IRS, higher up in the Treasury Department, or in the White House, directed Lois Lerner to do what she allegedly did?
BOUSTANY: Chris, the problem is we have been trying to get -- follow these facts wherever they go and we've been stonewalled with slow production of documents. Clearly, we've been obstructed by Lois Lerner at every level. She misled the inspector general for tax investigation. She has, of course, pleaded the fifth in front of the committees -- one of the committees twice.
We have been not getting the documents that we need to really fully evaluate this so we can follow the facts from the ground up and see where they lead.
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WALLACE: Congressman, let me interrupt you, too, if I -- let me interrupt you, too, if I may, Congressman, because a lot of people -- Congressman Levin, let me ask my question to Congressman Boustany. A lot of people, including some Republicans, some of your colleagues, say that your committee and the House Oversight Committee have blown this because of the fact that you should have given Lois Lerner immunity. I mean, let's face it -- nobody really cares what Lois Lerner did, the question is did she get it from higher ups or was this just the decision by a mid-level bureaucrat in the IRS? Why not give her immunity a year ago under subject of penalty of perjury and have her say, were you given direction by anybody above you?
BOUSTANY: Well, that is a debatable point. It's worthy of discussion. The fact is we're still being obstructed by the IRS. We've now gone through two confirmed -- we have two confirmed IRS commissioners and two acting commissioners and we have still not gotten all the documents that we need to conclude this investigation.
The fact is, I want to follow the facts on this from the ground up starting with the Cincinnati office. We've had good interviews.
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WALLACE: You've had a year, sir. You've had a year.
BOUSTANY: Yes, it's been 10 months, and we're still obstructed.
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WALLACE: Congressman Levin?
LEVIN: Can I break in? You asked Mr. Boustany if there is any evidence of White House involvement. He doesn't answer it zero.
I was among the first to say Lois Lerner should be relieved of her duties, among the very first. And there's been zero evidence of this involvement of the White House.
And let me also say, there was an alternative. When Mr. Camp and Republicans in the House wanted to send the information that was in this booklet to the attorney general, they didn't have to have a secret session. And then make it public, violating the public's right to confidentiality.
WALLACE: OK. We --
LEVIN: All the chairman had to do was to call up the attorney general and say I want to give you this information.
WALLACE: OK, Congressman, I think you -- I think you made that point.
I want to ask you about this, though, because the fact is that the IRS was under heavy pressure at particularly this time to go over -- to go after conservative groups that were seeking tax exempt status. They were under heavy pressure from top Democrats, including David Axelrod, who has been an adviser to the president, Dick Durbin, Charles Schumer, and a fellow named Carl Levin, the senator from Michigan who just happens to be your brother. You really don't think that that pressure from all the top Democrats on the Democratic IRS and Democratic administration had anything to do with this?
LEVIN: The inspector general said in essence, no. And let me just point out very clearly -- the 501c4 --
BOUSTANY: The inspector general just simply did an audit. They haven't completed their investigation.
LEVIN: Let me just finish. Let me just finish.
501c4s are for entities that are involved in social welfare, not politics. As I said, in 2012 --
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WALLACE: Congressman, there were liberals groups that were involved in politics as well like Priorities USA, or at least as involved as Crossroads GPS. The Justice -- I mean, the IRS did nothing to look at those liberal groups but they went after groups.
I mean, we have a point at which two liberal campaign finance groups went to Lois Lerner and said, you really to go after GPS, Crossroads GPS, the Karl Rove group, and she immediately orders an examination, an audit of that.
LEVIN: Look, some of the 501c4 groups are liberal groups. There were liberal groups that were investigated. And the names of some of them are in the documents that were supposed to be secret. One half of the money in 2012 reported to the SEC came from two groups that are related to the Koch brothers and one to Karl Rove. It went from $1 million, as I said, in 2006 to $256 million in 2012, half of it from very conservative groups.
WALLACE: Gentlemen, we're --
LEVIN: A number of groups have been doing. This we need to look at it.
WALLACE: Again, I leave you gentlemen with again the point in the inspector general's own report -- 100 percent of groups with "Tea Party" or "Patriot" in their names were examined, and only 30 percent of groups with "Progressive" or "Progress."
Congressmen Levin, Congressman Boustany --
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: -- I want to thank you both. We're going to stay on top of this story. Thank you, gentlemen.
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