FOX "Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace" - Transcript: Affordable Care Act
Interview
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Utah's Mike Lee is leading Republican efforts to defund or delay ObamaCare. Virginia's Tim Kaine supports the president's health care reform.
And, Senators, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."
SEN. TIM KAINE, D-VA.: Thanks, Chris.
SEN. MIKE LEE, R-UTAH: Thank you.
WALLACE: Senator Kaine, let me start with you. Your side has already, as we pointed out with Congressman McCarthy, rejected the bill that the House passed last night.
KAINE: We'll act tomorrow, right.
WALLACE: You'll act tomorrow?
KAINE: Yes.
WALLACE: Will you pass their measure which would keep funding the military in case there's a shutdown?
KAINE: Chris, in all likelihood we will. We think it's insufficient. It doesn't cover V.A. and other important workers, but it is necessary. And I don't suspect that will be too controversial.
WALLACE: OK. Senator Lee, you and Ted Cruz have been openly, as I just mentioned with Congressman McCarthy, lobbying House conservatives to go up against Speaker Boehner's plans. He didn't want to have this fight. He didn't want to shut the government.
Is that appropriate?
LEE: Well, first of all I support what the House has done. I support what the House did last night based on what I've heard about it, haven't yet seen it. And I support what they did last week.
Look, Republicans are doing everything that we can to protect America from a shut down and protect America from the harmful effects of ObamaCare. This law is not ready to be implemented.
Every day, we are learning about somebody else is losing a job, having their benefits slashed or having their hours or their wages cut.
And we also know that the president himself has acknowledged that the law is not ready. He is making exceptions for people for unions, for big business and other special interest. If it's not ready for some, it's not ready for everyone and we should delay it for everyone.
WALLACE: OK, because of the fact that the exchanges kick in, and on October 1st, we want to have this debate. How it's going to affect real people?
First, coverage. Here is what the president promised.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If you've got health insurance, you like your doctor, you like your plan -- you can keep your doctor. You can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: But major companies like these on the screen say they will put their workers on public or private exchanges.
Senator Lee, many of those folks won't be able to keep their doctors or their plans.
LEE: Many of those won't, nor will the 20,000 employees of Home Depot who learned just a week ago Friday that they will be losing their coverage as well. People were being told this all the time.
So, I have to ask the question, how many more Americans will have to lose their jobs or their health coverage, or have to have their wages or their hours cut as a result of this law before Congress acts?
It's time to act. And what we keep hearing from Democrats is ObamaCare is the law. Well, if it's the law, then why isn't the president following? Why is the president rewriting it? Why is the president --
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: All right. But I want to stick to how this is going to affect people.
Senator Kaine, let me bring this up, the president said, if you like your doctor, if you like your plan, you can keep them. But the fact is, a lot of people are going to be thrown into these public exchanges where they can't keep their doctors or their plans without having to pay a whole lot more money because they'll be out of network.
KAINE: Chris, I agree we should have this debate, but we shouldn't connect it to a government shut down. That's the fundamental disagreement between the two sides here. I mean, just for an example, on the Senate --
WALLACE: But let's --
KAINE: No, I'm going to answer your question.
WALLACE: I want to answer my question.
KAINE: Yes.
WALLACE: Because the fact is, this goes into effect whether there's a shutdown or not.
KAINE: Right. Well, I hope that we have to read the delay provision. The delay provision says everything that goes into effect beginning October 1 gets delayed for a year. Does that delay the exchanges? It will definitely delay the --
WALLACE: But you're not going to pass --
KAINE: It will definitely -- you're right -- but it will definitely delay the ability of people not to be turns away from preexisting conditions, delay maternity care.
WALLACE: Answer my question, what about --
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: All right.
KAINE: We're not going to pass it. We're not going to pass it because it is wrong to do a shut down of government as the leverage to make change.
WALLACE: But, sir, answer my question.
KAINE: OK, now, the question.
WALLACE: Well, the question is, the president promised you can keep your coverage, you can keep your doctor -- no, you can't.
KAINE: In the exchanges? In the exchanges, the news that came out about the exchanges last week, and we're going to have to see on October 1st is that people are going to have vastly more voices of insurance products and the ability to have them subsidized if the exchanges go into effect.
This is --
WALLACE: But if I'm seeing Dr. Smith, and I like Dr. Smith, and I've seen Dr. Smith for 10 years, it may well be when I go into the exchange, I can't see Dr. Smith anymore.
KAINE: I actually doubt that that's the case. The news about the exchanges is that the number of options is so great, you're going to have all kinds of choices, Dr. Smith or others that you might want to see based upon the reports last week.
WALLACE: Senator Lee?
LEE: Well, the facts just don't back that up. The facts suggest that we see is a lot of people losing access to their doctor, to health plans that have worked for them for many years. This law is a train wreck. It's been described it as much by its author in the Senate. And we can't move forward, that we can't simply allow this train wreck to happen.
As difficult as it is to stop, we can't allow it to happen. We've got to do everything we can to protect the American --
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: Forgive me, I'm trying to stop the rhetoric. I want to get to the specific points here.
KAINE: Let me tell you why it's not a train wreck.
WALLACE: I don't want -- I'm not asking about that.
KAINE: OK.
WALLACE: I'm asking about coverage.
Now, I want to ask about premiums, it's like herding cats here today.
KAINE: We are senators. I mean --
WALLACE: I understand that. The premiums people will have to pay. Here is what the president promised.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: They said these rates would come in real high and everybody's premiums would be sky high, and it turns out, lo and behold, actually, the prices came in lower than we expected, lower than I predicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: But the reality is more complicated. While older folks may pay less, let's take the example of a 27-year-old nonsmoker in Philadelphia who now pays $73 a month. And he will pay $195 a month under the cheapest ObamaCare plan.
Senator Lee, in addition to the fact these plans came out last week, people will pay higher premiums, they also are going to have big deductibles, as much as $5,000 a year.
LEE: Big deductibles, high premiums -- and we're seeing their statistics for 27-year-olds. We see that even when you get up to 40- year-olds, in many parts of the country, people will be paying sometimes double what they have been paying currently. And this is not acceptable.
We are seeing astronomical increases in health care premiums, and people simply can't afford that right now. We can't afford to put that on the American people, especially the time when we're being told by the president that this law would make health care cheaper, that this law would make healthcare more fair and it's having the opposite effect in both respects.
WALLACE: Senator, I want to show you a letter that Regence-Blue Cross Blue Shield sent a 62-year-old couple in Chicago this last week. They run a small business. Actually, it's two weeks ago. They sent it to them. It says, quote, "Under the Affordable Care Act, they must get a new policy that doubles their deductible to $5,000 each, raises the cost of an office visit to specialists from $35 a visit to $100 visit, and increases their premium."
Again, that's not what the president promised.
KAINE: Chris, I don't believe everything an insurance company says. I'm sure the insurance company says, well, this is because of the Affordable Care Act. These are the same guys who were kicking people off of policies and turning people away from policies because they have pre-existing condition.
WALLACE: So, you're seeing these folks. When they're told their deductibles are going to up, their premiums are going to go up --
KAINE: That might be true, but it may have not nothing to do with the Affordable Care Act. The word that was out this week about the premiums in Virginia, when these exchanges open, will be very favorable to people and some of the numbers you were quoting earlier didn't take into account the fact that there are subsidies as well.
So, if you beneath a certain income level, whatever that premium is, it's going to be subsidized and dropped to be very affordable. Again, very important questions, but we shouldn't be wrapping these questions up with the threat of government shutdown. That's what's fundamentally wrong about this.
WALLACE: I understand that, sir. And the shutdown is a different issue, we'll talk about that.
I want to talk about ObamaCare.
KAINE: I'm going to keep bringing it back because there's only one side that is linking ObamaCare with the shutdown of government. On our side, we say, let's have the debate, let's have the debate about immigration reform, other important, but let's not wrap it up in government shutdown.
WALLACE: I think you made that point. OK, let's go to the question of jobs. Under ObamaCare, any employer with more than 50 full-time workers must provide coverage in 2015, must provide under the employer mandate, or pay a penalty. And full-time is defined as 30 hours a week or more.
President Obama says that won't be a problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: They said this would be a disaster in terms of job. There's no widespread evidence that the Affordable Care Act is hurting jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: But a study this week found 313 companies, 313, are either laying off workers or cutting their hours to avoid the ObamaCare employer mandate.
Senator Lee?
LEE: This is yet another example of what happens in Washington. As we say, the bullet points are very different than the bill, and that's true with respect to any piece of legislation, especially with 2,700-page piece of legislation that no one read before they passed it. We're still learning more and more about the implications of this law.
As it's taking effect, as we're getting ready for this law to kick in fully in 2014, we're seeing the harmful effects and we're seeing that people are losing jobs, we're seeing that people are losing access to health care. The health care is getting more expensive, not less expensive. And that the president is handing out favors to special interests, carve-outs.
We want to hand out those favors to all Americans. We want a delay for everyone. And the best way to do that is by defunding it. The only way to do that is in connection with the continuing resolution.
KAINE: But, Chris, he mentioned all these bad things. We're also seeing that people, kids aren't getting turned away because of preexisting conditions. We are seeing that small businesses get tax credits to buy insurance for their employees, that seniors are getting free preventive care under Medicare, that we can't discriminate against women on the grounds of gender.
A whole lot -- I had personal experience with this. When I was running for Senate, I didn't have a full time employer because I was running full time. I had to buy insurance.
We called to get insurance, and my wife was told, we'll give you insurance for you and your husband, and two of your three kids. But we won't give you insurance for your third kid because of a medical condition. My wife called and said, I think that's against the law.
An HHS called the insurance company and they had to calls us and apologize and say, you know what, we will write you an insurance for your entire family. It's now against the law to say to a kid, we're not going to insure you, we'll insure everyone else.
Those are the good things that are happening and we can reform, but let's not wrap it up with government shutdown.
WALLACE: OK. But let's keep the subject on jobs, because not just Republicans who are saying that this is costing jobs -- so is big labor. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY O'SULLIVAN, PRESIDENT, LABORERS' INT'L UNION: Well, we'll be damned if we're going to lose our health insurance because of unintended consequences in the law. It needs to be changed, it needs to be fixed and it needs to be fixed now, brothers and sisters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Union leaders, big Obama supporters are saying this is hurting them.
KAINE: And they're saying it needs to be fixed. So, let's have a debate about a fix than about repeal, defund or delay.
What we've been wanting to have a debate about reforms, in March, the Senate passed in a budget an idea to reform those medical device tax. We want to fix it. We want to reform it. It was in the budget bill. That's the right way to do this.
The Republicans have blocked us from going into a budget conference for now six and a half months.
WALLACE: OK. We're --
KAINE: You fix it in a budget conference not with a government shut down.
WALLACE: OK, I want to get to one last area, and actually this is an area that you're going to like and perhaps more than Senate Lee.
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, I want to talk about access, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimates, by 2006, ObamaCare will cover 30 million to 33 million people who are now insurance. The CBO found a House Republican would cover only 3 million.
Senator Lee, for all the talk about delaying and defunding Obama care, you guys do not have a plan that takes care of those millions of people who are now uninsured.
LEE: First of all, that same entity, the Congressional Budget Office, also found that 10 years from now, we will still have 31 million uninsured in America. We were promised this law, ObamaCare, would take care of that.
WALLACE: But it would take care of tens of millions of people.
LEE: It would perhaps, and we also know that as go into that, that would come at a cost of many, many jobs. It would come at a cost of many people paying much higher health care premium.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: I'm going to hold you to account as I did Senator Kaine. Specific issue -- you don't have a plan that would cover if not all uninsured, tens of millions.
LEE: We do have a number of plans that Republicans have submitted. I submitted one in connection with my Saving the American Dream Plan last year. The House Republican Study Committee has recently introduced another plan.
There are a lot of other plans out there that would make increased affordability and portability of health insurance, making it more possible for more people to afford health insurance and make sure they can carry it state to state and job to job, creating interstate competition so that more people can afford it.
WALLACE: You get the last word, Senator.
KAINE: I'm going to say -- I'm glad that Mike has a plan.
On (INAUDIBLE) with Senator Cruz, I asked him the other day, he talked about reforms he would like. I said, during his filibuster -- well, have you introduced the bill. No, I haven't, I haven't been here long enough but I'm to put one together.
Let's put plans on the table and let's about fixing and adjusting. But, you know, the best word about our current dynamic was a House Republican, Tom Cole, who's the deputy whip, who rejects this shutdown thing and here's what he said, "When you hurt millions of people and inconvenience tens of millions more, you usually don't achieve your end because they wonder why you did that to them."
We should not be talking about government shut down. Let's talk reform. We want to do reforms, but it's wrong to tie it up to a government shutdown, Chris.
WALLACE: Senator Kaine, Senator Lee, thank you both. Thanks for coming in. It should be an interesting week, gentlemen.
LEE: Thanks, Chris
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