MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript - Drones and National Security

Interview

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MADDOW: I`m not saying anybody is like Hitler. I`m just saying think
of Hitler, think evil, and then close your eyes and think of people here in
America.

Yes. Rand Paul, wildly imperfect messenger for any message, really,
but particularly for the nobility of the cause of talking a long time.
But there is something important about the United States Congress
finding its footing and wanting to assert its role, its oversight role in
where and why and how our country wages war. The president is the
commander-in-chief, absolutely, but it is the Congress in which the
founders vested the questions of war and peace.

And maybe those green shoots of responsibility only rose the way they
did today because Republicans can only be inspired to oversee such matters
when the president is of the opposing party, and they don`t care when it`s
a Republican president -- I think that`s the case.

But, still, despite its craven partisanship and its frequent lapse
into incoherence, and Rand Paul`s frequent and gratuitous Hitler
references, because Rand Paul cannot help himself, Congress demanding to
play its part in matters of war is in broad strokes the way Congress is
supposed to work. It`s the way our whole government is supposed to work.
And moreover, when Congress does want to use the almost miraculously
un-democratic power that is reserved specifically to the Senate, to block
majority rule, to hold up the operation of the whole legislature because of
one guy`s concern, or because of a minority concern for which regular
business and regular democracy must wait so that those concerns can be
heard, when that happens, it is supposed to be a giant pain. It`s supposed
to be exhausting, and showboaty and selfish and ostentatious test and an
ostentatious display of endurance, because this is not supposed to happen
every day. This is supposed to be weird and rare and extraordinary
circumstance in which it takes a supermajority vote, 60 votes before you
can move on.

Blocking or delaying a presidential nomination, or anything that is
supposed to be subject to a majority vote in the legislature, blocking or
delaying it until you can get 60 votes for it, that is a big hairy deal.
The best new thing in the world today is that it was not done today
like it was nothing, like it is done most days now. Today, it was made
exactly as big and as hairy a deal as it is always supposed to be.
Rand Paul started filibustering at 11:47 this morning Eastern Time.
This is a live image of the Senate floor right now at 9:11 Eastern as I
speak to you. That`s Senator Mike Lee of Utah, continuing Rand Paul`s work
right now. It is still going on.

Joining us right now is Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. He engaged
Senator Paul in debate during today`s filibuster. He is a member of the
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

Senator Wyden, thank you so much for being here tonight.

SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: Thanks for having me again.

MADDOW: So the talking filibuster is not much used anymore. We still
have to show footage of fiction of "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" in order
to give people the idea.

Did this debate about congressional oversight and transparency on
drones, did it get better today by use of this tactic?

WYDEN: I think the American people certainly know more about the
fundamental question, which is we have to strike a better balance, Rachel,
between protecting our security and protecting our liberty. I`ve just come
off a two-year effort, made seven separate requests to get the Obama
administration to release these previously secret legal analyses which
offer the justification for the drone strikes.

And this debate is just beginning. And the reason I went to the floor
today is, I thought it was an opportune time to try to show that there is a
new effort by both progressives and conservatives to try to show that in
our country, it`s possible both to protect our liberties and at the same
time ensure that we`re vigilant against the very real threats that are out
there.

MADDOW: It seems like the occasion of John Brennan`s nomination has
brought about a bunch of stuff that we now know, or at least that you know
as a senator that we were not able to know before.

We saw, first, reported by NBC`s Michael Isikoff a summary of legal
reasoning by the administration on killing Americans abroad with the drone
program. We also then saw released to the Intelligence Committee a couple
Office of Legal Counsel memos on the same subject. Then more memos on the
same subject released to the Intelligence Committee.

It seems like things are going in the direction that you want.
But how much further do you think the administration should go in
terms of making information available? And do you think should it be
limited to these disclosures about killing Americans, or do you think it
should be about killing anybody using this program?

WYDEN: First of all, I think there does need to be more information
made available. I think it can be done consistent with national security
about drones. And I am going to make a concerted effort to declassify more
of that information in the days ahead.

This debate, Rachel, is just beginning. The fact is the very nature
of warfare is changing so dramatically, we have just begun the discussion,
and certainly now, it`s time to bring the public into this.

The members of the Intelligence Committee have just gotten access to
the documents. People have asked, am I satisfied with that? Of course
not. I`m going to have additional follow-up questions, probably next week
on some of the issues, and some of that will be public. Some of it will
have to be classified.

But this debate has really just begun.

MADDOW: I know that you engaged Senator Paul today in debate as he
held the floor. I was careful to say it that way, because as far as I
understand it, you are not participating in the filibuster of John
Brennan`s nomination. You do believe he should get an up or down vote.
You do not want it delayed.

Is that accurate?

WYDEN: I already voted for Mr. Brennan in the Intelligence Committee.
I have announced that I`m going to vote for him on the floor. There were
parts of his nomination hearing that I was quite encouraged by.

I liked the fact that he wanted to make clear that if mistakes were
made with respect to drones, that ought to be made public. At the same
time, I was concerned about the fact it was hard to get information from
him about countries where lethal force was used.

But we have made some progress. I think now we ought to be trying to
build on it.

MADDOW: When -- I should say if and when John Brennan is confirmed
for the CIA when he does get his full floor vote in the Senate, and it`s
expected that he will be confirm in order position, what do you think will
be the next point of leverage? Or what do you think will be the next
occasion for which to continue to press the administration for the kind of
transparency that you want?

Attorney General Eric Holder says we should expect to hear the
president himself discuss these matters.

Do you feel like the administration is in the mood to continue to
disclose further information, or do they need to be pushed with a
nomination like this on the line the way they have over the Brennan
situation?

WYDEN: The president has told me, Rachel, personally, and I`ve talked
to him twice on this, that he is committed to a more fulsome airing, let us
say, about these kinds of issues. And I think that is so important.

We have to protect what`s called the operations and methods in the
intelligence community. But the law itself should not be kept secret. And
it`s this fight against secret law that has been so important.

It shouldn`t have taken seven requests. That`s how many I made,
Rachel, over a two-year period to get this kind of information. Now, I
will tell you just in the last few days, the letter from Mr. Brennan was
quite forthright on the question of making sure that he didn`t believe the
CIA could use drones in the United States.

The letter from Mr. Holder, while moving in the right direction, he in
effect said he could only see using the military against what would amount
to a foreign attack in the United States like Pearl Harbor. There still
are some unanswered question there.

That`s what we`re going to have to keep digging into. And I think you
saw today those efforts will be bipartisan.

MADDOW: Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, that distinction that you`re
making there, the difference between secret operations and secret law is
one that for all these different ways of resistance I believe is really
starting to sink in, and the way people talk that in a way that I think is
mostly attribute to you, sir.

WYDEN: Thank you.

MADDOW: So thank you for advances our discourse on that and thanks
for being here tonight.
WYDEN: Thank you.

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