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MALVEAUX: Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank leaves the office next year after 32 years in the House. Congressman Frank, he's joining us to talk about his political legacy. Congressman, thank you for joining is. First of all, I do want to get your thoughts on a story that broke regarding the defense of marriage act. Today, a federal appeals court in Massachusetts ruled the defense of marriage act unconstitutional. It defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman and the court says the act discriminates against same sex couples. Is this part of a sea change, do you think, that is taking place in this country? When you look at that are you heartened to see that?

REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Yes. I was pleased but not surprised. It does not say that anybody anywhere has a right in America to marry someone of the same sex. It says very carefully done by excellent lawyers at the gay and lesbian advocates independents in Boston where a state has recognized marriage, whether it is between people of the opposite sex or the same sex, the federal government cannot discriminate.

In America, marriage is always been defined at the state level. What the defense of marriage act said, in part, and that's the only part that was up in the decision was that the federal government will say, yes, if you're a man and a woman married, you'll get social security, joint taxes, et cetera. But if you're two women married, you don't.

And what the district court judge said and now the three judges unanimous at the circuit court said, no, that's not right. You have to treat people equally and it's a denial of a fundamental federal doctrine of equal protection and the laws. It's the argument that President Obama made when he said earlier that he wasn't going to defend the law and it's a vindication of his position.

MALVEAUX: Right. So, Congressman, what do you make of what's happened here? Because there does seem to be a sea change regarding same sex marriage. President Obama coming out in support of it. You were really a pioneer as openly gay in Congress. Did you ever imagine that it would gain so much support that you'd be still in Congress and you'd see this kind of change happening?

FRANK: I was hoping it would happen. It's happening more quickly than I wanted it to, not as quickly as it should. We're talking about a prejudice that never had any rational basis in the first place. And I think what's happening, Suzanne, is, very simply, reality defeats prejudice. For many years, those of us who were gay and lesbian, I was in the category until 25 years ago when I volunteered that I was gay when it came up, we were hiding and so these inaccurate vicious stereotypes about us were all people knew.

As we have become honest about our sexuality, you know, we don't discuss our sexuality any more than straight people do but there was this difference. When we talk honestly about our sexuality, it's called coming out. When the heterosexual majority does it, it is called talking. You know, we all talk about our sexuality, and that's helped defeat the prejudice. Marriage is an example.

MALVEAUX: Do you --

FRANK: (INAUDIBLE) referenda on marriage when it was prospective. But wherever marriage has been in effect for any period of time, the opposition to it dies away, same sex marriage, because it's clear it doesn't hurt anybody.

MALVEAUX: Do you fear there will be a back lash? We've heard from several pastors of churches throughout the country, really some fiery rhetoric, some of them even threatening to kill gay people in the community. Is that a concern at all that you might -- we might see something like that?

FRANK: Well, I'm not in fear with that. Yes, there's a backlash, there always has been, whether it was African-Americans, women, any group that has decided that they're no longer going to accept second class or third class treatment and that fights for its rights will excite some opposition. As long as you're willing to be supined, people will be much nicer to you. What we found, however, is that this one, those who express those views are clearly in the minority and especially generationally. What gives me the most optimism is this. If you ask people under 30, it is clear that they don't understand what this is all about. They don't understand why we're two other people who happen to be in love should be of any negative concern to them and that's why this thing is changing. That is, as I said, the reality. Look, let's take Don't Ask Don't Tell. A year ago, we had predictions from my conservative friends that if we allowed gay and lesbian people to serve in the militarily openly, they have been serving for years, --

MALVEAUX: Right.

FRANK: -- it would cause chaos. It's been in effect for months now and nobody noticed. So, this is what we see. The reality, people get to see what gay people are like and lesbians are like and that the prejudice then is shown to be baseless.

MALVEAUX: Let's talk a little about your record and your legacy. Thirty-two years in Congress. What are you most proud of? What do you hope people remember you by?

FRANK: Well, I guess -- I hope that it's -- that's the same question, I am not sure it is. I can't be sure that what I am most proud of is what people will remember me by. But obviously, the financial foreign bill was very important. I worked very hard to try and promote affordable rental housing. I think it was misunderstood. I -- for most of my career, I focused on trying to build rental housing for low income people, and we got sidetrack and too many others were pushing them into homeownership which was inappropriate. I feel good about having helped to diminish, not unfortunately abolish altogether, the prejudice against us. I am proud, frankly, the role I played in 1998. I was on the judiciary committee then when Newt Gingrich tried to impeach Bill Clinton in one of the great acts of hypocrisy in American history for his sex life, and we were able to defeat that and I think it was a great success for democracy. And I am most recently proud now that finally the country is focusing on the need to reduce excessive military expenditures, basically, to tell our European allies that they should defend themselves and not expect us to restrict Medicare or Social Security or programs in the quality of life at home so we can subsidize the defense budgets.

MALVEAUX: When you look at the election, you look at the campaign season here, what do you think President Obama has done right, that he has gotten right and what do you think he really needs to work on?

FRANK: Well, I -- what he's clearly has done right is to help turn around the mess of the economy. He inherited the worst economy since the great depression. Interestingly, because he was trying to be somewhat bipartisan, he did himself a little political damage by not stressing how bad things were. And I think that's part of the reason people said, oh, well, he didn't move quick enough. In fact, the American economy today of all the economies in the advanced nations in the world, Japan, Europe, we're doing the best. And we're doing the best because we're mixing policies. Now, we've been retarded by conservative opposition. We have created, in the United States since the beginning of the turnaround late in 2009, maybe about 4 million private sector jobs. Unfortunately, we've lost over 600,000 jobs from state and local government -- teachers, firefighters, police officers -- because the right wing has sort of cut back on that. But I think he's dealt with the economy well. I think the financial --

MALVEAUX: Do you think that Mitt Romney has a good record? Do you think that he has an adequate regard as the governor of Massachusetts and also a businessman to lead forward?

FRANK: No, no, he was -- he was a terrible governor of Massachusetts. I represented, among other areas, southeastern Massachusetts. A working class area where there had been national economic trends and he left us behind. We had a number of things we were trying to do to help the fishing industry, to get commuter rail built from the cities of Forward (ph), New Bedford to Boston and to support other institutions there. It was as if that area didn't exist. But Mitt Romney became governor for one reason, to run for president. And he was seriously neglectful of the area of the state that I represented that most needed his help.

We also, of course, got a little bit of whiplash because Mitt Romney, the liberal, was running against Ted Kennedy in 1994 and then Mitt Romney, the moderate, ran for governor. But by the time his term was ending, he was Mitt Romney, the conservative, running for president. And you get a little bit dizzy watching the road runner go through those paces.

MALVEAUX: Will you actually campaign? Will you help President Obama this go round?

FRANK: Oh, very much so. You know, I'm not a great fan of campaigning for myself, but campaigning for others is important. Yes, I will work very hard for the president.

You ask -- let me be honest. There is one area where I disagree with him. I think he is staying in Afghanistan longer than we should and is for a higher level of military expenditure. But even here, the contrast with the Republicans is extraordinary.

We have Republicans who say, we have to reduce the deficit but not raise taxes by a penny and significantly increase military expenditures. People want to invade Syria or support an invasion of Syria. People who want to stay in Afghanistan longer, who didn't want him to get out of Iraq. To the contrast, yes, I think the president should be doing less in terms of making America the world's military helper, but the Republicans and Romney, in particular, are just totally wrong on this.

MALVEAUX: Do you think he should do more in Syria, very quickly?

FRANK: No. I don't think every problem in the world is subject to American salvation (ph). Look, if we were to go in, in a military way, directly or indirectly or to another Muslim country, it would be damaging. And this notion that if there's a problem anywhere, it has to be the American taxpayer and the American military to bail them out is a great mistake. The Arab League should be involved. The Europeans should be involved. We are doing a great deal. We're carrying the brunt in Afghanistan. This notion that it's always America's job and everybody else can slack off, one, it's unfair to us and it's unfair to think that with all that's gone on, America can now go on and take on frankly a third or fourth military intervention in a Muslim country and be fairly judged. Yes, there are terrible things going on in Syria and the man's a thug, but there are a lot of other countries in the world and my colleagues who act as if everything that goes wrong, it's America's fault and we've got to be the ones to solve it and if we don't solve it it's our fault. They're doing our country a terrible disservice.

MALVEAUX: OK. And finally, congressman, I do want to ask you about the remark that you made. It created a little bit of a dust up about a hoodie at the graduation ceremony recently. You later apologized. I want to play that for our viewers, if you can explain.

FRANK: No, I didn't apologize. I didn't -- I didn't -- excuse me, but I didn't apologize.

MALVEAUX: Oh, OK. Well, let's play -- let's play the bit here and then maybe you can explain on the other end.

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FRANK: Get an honorary degree, they give you one of these and, Hubie (ph), I think you now have a hoodie you can wear and no one will shoot at you. So I think you'll feel, I hope, pretty protected by that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: If you can explain your remark. I'm sorry if you did not -- if I misspoke.

FRANK: Yes, I think one of the worst issues we have in America is being racial prejudice. And I think the incident in Florida, where this young man was murdered, who was simply innocently walking home to where he had a place to be or walking to the place where he was staying and part of the reason he was murdered, he was wearing a hoodie and looked suspicious, that's the kind of terrible attitude. That's the (ph) attack. And I think that kind of humor is a way to attack it.

Actually, it was the third time I used the line. The first two times I got an honorary degree myself and said, yes, I wonder if this is a hoodie I can wear on the floor of the House. But that commencement, I wouldn't (INAUDIBLE) a good friend of mine was. And, yes, I think efforts to show how damaging that prejudice is, and I think this anti- hoodie thing, you know, I suppose some people might say the anti- hoodie sentiment is from people who got burned on the FaceBook IPO. But, in fact, it's more of a -- kind of part of a conflict of sort of racial profiling. And, yes, I was trying to -- here was a very distinguished guy getting an academic honorary degree, which comes with a hood, and I am not apologizing at all for trying to make fun of and ridicule and hopefully diminish this attitude that says, oh, my God, the man's got a hoodie, he must be suspicious.

MALVEAUX: So there were some people who thought you were making light of that, but that -- that was a misunderstanding.

FRANK: Oh, I think -- no, no, it's -- humor is an effective political tool. The notion that you can't make a hood joke -- now, maybe it wasn't the funniest joke in the world, but making light of me, I was ridiculing that attitude and the notion that I guess you could say that satire is making light of things. I don't think so. I think it as an honorable tradition in debate and I, as I said, it was the third time I've said it. Frankly, nobody I've talked to in my own district or elsewhere has said anything about it. It's largely a media creation.

MALVEAUX: And, congressman, I understand your -- you've got a wedding planned as well. You're going to be married soon. Is that right?

FRANK: Yes. Jim and I, my husband to be, Jim Ready, and I will be ready and we're going to be married during the summer and that means that I will spend the last few months of my congressional career as a married gay man. And I will have the great pleasure of my spouse, Jim, whose very popular with my colleagues and he's already well known to them, but I think it's -- you know, I said, reality defeats prejudice. I think Jim and I, as a married couple, interacting as we will, going to the White House ball in December and as another married couple, I think that's one more fight in the effort to diminish prejudice and give people an alternative reality to the silly stereotypes that they sometimes see.

MALVEAUX: All right, congressman, thank you very much. Thirty-two years. Quite a legacy. Thank you once again. Congressman Barney Frank.

FRANK: You're welcome.

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