Federal News Service - Panel II of a Hearing of the House Committee on Financial Services - Transcript

Federal News Service

HEADLINE: PANEL II OF A HEARING OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

SUBJECT: IDENTIFYING AND PREVENTING TERRORIST FINANCING

CHAIRED BY: REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL OXLEY (R-OH))

WITNESSES: STUART LEVEY, UNDERSECRETARY FOR OFFICE OF TERRORISM AND FINANCIAL INTELLIGENCE, DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY; FRANK LIBUTTI, UNDERSECRETARY FOR INFORMATION ANALYSIS AND INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY; BARRY SABIN, CHIEF OF COUNTERTERRORISM SECTION, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

LOCATION: 2128 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:

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REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank our witnesses. My head is just swimming from all of this inter-agency cooperation that we have. And I'm very pleased that people are cooperating so well. But I think that we all agree that thus far we're only able to identify relatively small amounts of money that's supporting terrorism. And even with the new laws under the Patriot Act where we can indict those who are substantial supporters, it's still very limited.

Some questions were raised here today that have not really been dealt with. I and others continue to raise questions about the charitable organizations and the Saudi government's relationship to them. And I for one believe that we are not able to penetrate just how big that is because the Saudis are our friends for a lot of reasons, close to this administration, and we have oil interests and other kinds of things.

And I think that this cozy relationship is not allowing us to deal with the Saudis in the way that we should be. And we'll eventually get to it, but it's going to be late in the game.

Secondly, Congresswoman Kelly asked about the (blood violence?) and she asked about Liberia and Charles Taylor, which I'm led to believe is a source of funding. We have not talked about tanzanite, tanzanite that is mined mostly in Africa, that supposedly has been supporting Osama bin Laden for a long time. And we say nothing about the drugs and the poppy fields in Afghanistan.

Now, you guys can tell us how great friends we are with Pakistan all you want. That border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, everything goes on. I mean, that's where all the dope dealing and the black-market smuggling and the crossing of the borders with the Taliban and al Qaeda and everybody else is. And God bless Mr. Musharraf. I think he throws us a bone from time to time. But I'm not convinced that there's any great effort to deal with terrorists. The madrassas are still going on. The schools are still there. Are they still being funded by the Saudis? Yes, they are. That's where all the fundamentalism and the hatred is taught.

So I guess I'm appreciative for the efforts that you make, but nobody is talking about the substantial terrorist funding that come from those sources that we have alluded to. And, in addition to that, where does the money come from to purchase the surface-to-air missiles, the grenade launchers, the AK-47s, the A-16s? I mean, let's talk real money and let's talk real support for terrorism and let's talk about why it is difficult to get at those sources until we face up to it. I mean, the inter-agency task force will be chasing each other for a long time.

Anybody can respond.

MR. SABIN: I'll start.

REP. WATERS: Okay.

MR. SABIN: With respect to alternative remittance systems and ability to fund through areas that would include drugs or weapons or infant formula, we are reviewing. There's GAO studies that confirm that about the government efforts to review and address, including FBI investigations, in that regard.

We have brought cases that relate to both undercover and other types of criminal prosecutions relating to, for example, in Colombia, the FARC and the AUC, both foreign terrorist-designated organizations.

REP. WATERS: If I could interrupt you for just one moment. Just tell me about the poppy fields that are flourishing in Afghanistan and the fact that we have Karzai in Kabul and we kind of watch him to make sure they don't kill him, but the Taliban and the warlords and everybody else are in control and we just turn a blind eye because we can't, we say, go in there and disrupt the cultivation, the growing of these poppy fields, because we're relying on that money to support that economy and we don't want to make enemies over there. I mean, let's just talk about that money.

MR. SABIN: Well, I'm going to stay in my lane in terms of the Justice Department. But in terms of the 9/11 commission report, what it found was that there was not drug trafficking funding for Osama bin Laden or al Qaeda, that it was linked to the Taliban but not to bin Laden.

With respect to Saudi charities, we're following the lead-I'm a career prosecutor. We look at the facts. We look at the law and we try and achieve justice and we follow the leads where it takes us.

In terms of after the May 2003 Riyadh bombing, the cooperation that has been provided to the FBI and to others that are seeking to look at those different charitable organizations has been most meaningful, as stated by Mr. Hamilton this morning.

In terms of the (conflict diamonds?) issue that you brought up, that is a matter that was referred to the Justice Department. It is under investigation.

And I would refer and echo Mr. Hamilton's comments about the fact that to date nothing has been demonstrably linked between that and actual criminal charges being able to be brought. But we are currently investigating and pursuing those leads.