MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich joins us now from Capitol Hill.

Welcome, Congressman.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Hi, Ron. It"s good to be with you.

REAGAN: Good to have you. Well, sir, why did you and 69 other House Democrats break with the president on Libya?

KUCINICH: Well, first of all, it"s not the president"s choice to make. It"s up to Congress to make the decision whether or not this country declares war. And so I"ve been involved in leading the effort to--not just against the war in Libya, but in leading the efforts so that Congress assumes its rightful position as a coequal branch of government, that our system of checks and balances actually is activated, and that the separation of power on the issue of war that our Founders had a clear intention to--not just to enact but to see preserved, that we preserve it.

REAGAN: As you well know, we--in the U.S. has hasn"t officially--

Congress hasn"t officially declared war since World War II, and we"ve fought in many places around the world. What is it about this Libyan operation that has people so up in arms?

KUCINICH: Well, you know, I--as I looked at what was happening, where the president unilaterally made a decision to take us into war, he talked to the Arab League, he talked to NATO, talked to the U.N., and didn"t come to the United States Congress and ask for permission.

When I looked at that, I said, you know, I don"t think that this is what the Founders had intended. I talked to other members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, and we decided that the Constitution does mean something here, that Article one, Section eight needs to be enforced, that the Congress--our constituents are the ones that are asked to serve if there"s a war. Our--we"re directly elected. Our constituents" lives can be put on the line, and we"d better have a say on these things.

And with America looking at a potential of expanding wars in Pakistan and Yemen and Somalia and Sudan and God knows where else, it"s time that Congress took its responsibility.

REAGAN: Now, you voted against authorizing the action in Libya, and I"m assuming that you"re one of the Democrats who also voted not to fund the operation in Libya. And I understand you"re going to introduce an amendment to that effect. If all Congress is going to do is express displeasure about this without actually pulling the money, are we really just talking about symbolism?

KUCINICH: Well, there is a symbolic dimension. You"re correct on
that. However, there"s nothing symbolic about an amendment which is coming up in two weeks--it"s an amendment sponsored by myself and Congressman Amash from Michigan. That amendment cuts the funds. That is the amendment that will be the defining vote on Libya because once you"ve cut the funds - and I think we"ve got a pretty good chance of passing it--then this thing is done.

REAGAN: Now, we all remember how we got into this, the circumstances that surrounded our action in Libya. Gadhafi"s forces were rolling towards Benghazi, a city of 700,000 people and he was vowing to slaughter them. What sort of discussion would we be having today if President Obama had sat on his hands and allowed that to happen? The Republicans, I imagine, would be up in arms, accusing him of allowing these people to die.

KUCINICH: Well, first of all, there was no massacre, and that Gadhafi was on a rant and was threatening, once he had experienced an armed insurrection--that calls for careful analysis and not just simply reaching for the military response. And the fact that we went based on threats, as opposed to anything that was definable that actually happened, that"s a big problem because here we reacted in Libya based on threats, and yet with what was going on in Yemen, in Bahrain, in Syria and in other places, where there"s real harm done to civilians, we didn"t do anything.

And so, you know, you have to see what"s really--what is the real deal here in Libya? Is it about America"s interests? I don"t know. I mean, Libya didn"t attack us. They don"t have any intention or capability of attacking us. The War Powers Act says there has to be a (INAUDIBLE) threat to the United States.

So that"s why, Ron, it was so important for Congress to get involved, to have the administration begin to answer questions. And they by no means have answered the fundamental questions about why are we there. Who are we supporting, really? And what"s the end game? We should be right now joining China and other nations that are talking about the need for a political solution because there is no military solution in Libya.

REAGAN: Well, you"re absolutely right, the end game is always the final question here with any sort of war activity.

Thank you, Congressman Dennis Kucinich. I know you"re busy, so I"ll let you get back to your work.

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