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BALDWIN: Well, we just heard from the Wisconsin governor on the whole state budget clash that we've been seeing spread out, and that clash has spread out into Ohio. Protesters are descending upon Ohio's state capitol of Columbus, and it's in budget fights that have many, many public workers and their ability to collectively bargain now caught in the crosshairs.

Here is Dennis Kucinich, a Democratic congressman from Ohio. And Congressman Kucinich, I appreciate you coming on here. And I simply want to get your opinion here on collective bargaining as a budget- balancer. But first I spoke yesterday live with the Ohio governor, Governor John Kasich. I want to play some of what he had to say and get your reaction.

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GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R) OHIO: We believe that at least in the last year the collective bargaining agreements have driven up our costs by a couple hundred million dollars. And in addition to that, local governments are going to get fewer resources from us.

Part of this is to give managers the tools to decide what they want to do. Now, if you're running a city and you want to give organized labor, you can. But if you also are a manager and you need to control your budgets, then don't deny them the tools.

And by the way, I come from a labor town. And this is not any effort on my part to try to go after organized labor. It is all part of a package designed to let Ohio succeed because we have been getting crushed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Congressman Kucinich, your reaction?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D -OHIO): Well, the fact that our governor in Ohio would include severing collective bargaining rights while telling workers he wants to talk to them about how much they would be paid not only defies logic, but it also defies the democratic process.

What Governor Kasich is doing it adopting a corporate, top-down approach telling workers this is what we're going to pay you whether you like it or not. Collective bargaining is about equality and giving workers an opportunity for workers to negotiate their wages and working conditions. Governor Kasich apparently has no tolerance for that, and it's the wrong mentality, frankly, for democratic governance.

BALDWIN: You say it's wrong mentality, but your party, the Democrats lost the election in Ohio. What makes Democrats think that they have the support to go up against this Republican governor who is very much so pushing this elimination of collective bargaining rights? What makes you think you have the support?

KUCINICH: Well, the idea of collective bargaining isn't the province of any party. As had you in your earlier report there are Republican governors having second thoughts about whether or not they want to crush unions.

The idea of collective bargaining is really a principle of an economic democracy, of making sure that workers have an even chance to negotiate their wages and benefits. That Governor Kasich would just decide no to collective bargaining, that, you know, he sees it as only a financial issue but there's an issue with respect to democratic governance.

And with respect to Governor Walker, he says he is concerned about workers. How can you be concerned about workers if you want to wipe out their rights to bargain collectively? It's fundamental.

BALDWIN: You obviously disagree wiping out what the heart of the unions say is their right to bargain. But then what solutions would you argue. No matter what side you argue, there's a massive budget hole in Ohio. It's $8 billion. How do you propose you close it? Would you raise taxes?

KUCINICH: You talk to workers representatives and anywhere and they are ready to negotiate their conditions and their benefits. But what you can't do is equip a governor or a mayor or a president, for that matter, to just tell people this is what you're going to get paid, take it or leave it. Sit down and shut up. You don't treat people like that in a democracy.

And once you start legitimizing that, what you do is set the stage for a breakdown in civil discourse. You set the stage for a disintegration of the social compact.

BALDWIN: I understand, but can you give me, congressman, can you give me one solution, one specific solution how you could help close the budget.

KUCINICH: Well, you know, if you're looking at the discussion in Wisconsin, I understand that the governor there essentially revoked a tax increase that went to people in the higher incomes that created an even greater deficit in Wisconsin. And I think that you have to look at corporations and at the wealthiest individuals in a society accepting a fair share of the burden of taxation.

Now, you know, middle class people and working class people are already paying a lion's share of the taxes federally. The burden of taxation has shifted more and more on to the middle class in this country.

And I think that we ought to look at how taxes are structured in every state to make sure that corporations are paying a fair share and to make sure that those who make the most are paying a fair share.

BALDWIN: Representative Dennis Kucinich, live for me from Capitol Hill, sir, I appreciate the conversation. Thank you.

KUCINICH: Thank you. Thank you very much.

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