CNN "State of the Union with Candy Crowley" - Transcript
Interview
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CROWLEY: With me now here in Washington, Republican Senator Richard Lugar of Indiana.
Thank you for being here, sir. We appreciate it. The House has passed a bill, which is about $61 billion in spending cuts, to take the government through September. Can you support what the House has done?
LUGAR: No, I would not support the entirety of the House bill, but I think the basic problem presently is there's very little time. There is the imminence of a government shutdown. I just heard your interview with Chuck Schumer.
I would simply add this thought and using your program as an appeal for the president of the United States to call immediately the leadership of both Houses together and indicate the gravity of the problem of the government shutting down, and at the same time to produce a formula in which, as a matter of fact, the Senate might act in four days of time because the Senate doesn't usually act in four days of time on complex issues, absolutely no possibility.
So already the blame game has started with Chuck suggesting the Newt Gingrich situation, Republicans suggesting, however, that we don't have the money that we're talking about in this budget. We are spending money that we do not have. Even the Social Security payments, we do not have. We're borrowing that from the Treasury.
CROWLEY: Right. Is 61 billion too much?
LUGAR: Not necessarily, but I think that senators would...
CROWLEY: But this configuration of 61 billion is?
LUGAR: But once you take a look at all of the elements there, various agencies are shut down, there could be some disputes there. Speaker Boehner has said essentially that he's not going to favor continuation without there being significant cuts.
Significant or whatever, the adjective is very important, but this -- the president sort of backed away from all of this. He offered his budget, which is irrelevant to the whole business right now. This is a time for presidential leadership, because it is crucial to our armed forces and the continuation of Social Security payments, all of the things we've talked about, we do not have a government shutdown.
But we must have reductions that are very, very substantial and the Senate must have an opportunity to act upon them as well as the House.
CROWLEY: Can you just quickly for me, to wrap this up, define substantial from the view of Richard Lugar?
LUGAR: Well, I think something in the neighborhood of the 60 billion that the House has done. That seems to me to be a reasonable figure, to say the least. I don't think they have overstated it.
CROWLEY: OK. Thank you. I want to move you on to a couple of things. We are seeing renewed stories now that the Obama administration is in fact talking with leaders in the Taliban in Afghanistan. Does anything about that bother you?
LUGAR: Well, I'm certain such talks have gone on in the past, sometimes covertly, sometimes more obviously. It is a situation described frequently as a stalemate in which somehow at the edges talks with the Taliban, who are currently the enemy, as opposed to the al Qaeda people who have probably left to go to Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, or wherever, I think that we're either going to have to have some type of negotiations with the president of the country, President Karzai, the leadership, whether they call them warlords or the leaders in various provinces take place.
Otherwise, we're in a situation in which the Taliban or al Qaeda and/or various forces will simply outwait us. The Afghan people, in terms of their own security, will never be confident. And we're at a juncture in which our government is going to have to define really what the end-game is, what our purposes are.
They have not done so. This is something we've called for in the Foreign Relations Committee. I think we're going to have to get it.
CROWLEY: At some point know like what is our goal here, like when can we get out?
LUGAR: Precisely, because what is being suggested really is support of an Afghan army for many, many years. You asked, with what money? Well, with our money, tax money. At the same time we're discussing this budget situation...
CROWLEY: Right.
LUGAR: ... we're really implying a huge amount of money year after year and so-called nation-building in Afghanistan or maybe just holding the fort with regard to cities we think we've captured.
CROWLEY: Let me ask you a couple of things about the goings on in Egypt. First of all, we've had long ties with the Egyptian military. They are now in control. Do you trust, fully trust the Egyptian military to transition to some sort of democratic elections?
LUGAR: Well, I don't think it's a question of trust. I think we take objectively the fact that they are in charge. We are hopeful from whatever advice they are going to take from us that they will in fact have a new constitution or elements of that, that they will begin to build political parties or allow those to be built.
But that's going to require a great deal of expertise as to how a political party is formed. It's important that we do, however. The Muslim Brotherhood is fairly well organized. People can see maybe 30 percent of the electorate, in this situation.
And so, as a result, the military has right now the ball in their court. I think we have to be understandable that our process here is going to be modest. In other words, the Egyptians need not...
CROWLEY: There's not much we can actually do.
LUGAR: No, or need not take our advice at all.
CROWLEY: Right.
LUGAR: Secretary Clinton the other day suggested $150 million of money already projected toward Egypt be allocated towards more specific economic aid. That may be helpful.
Egyptian diplomats have said the Egyptian economy is in the tank, with the tourism thing demolished, with the corn, wheat prices and the so forth on which Egypt is so dependent, creating real hazards with regard to just feeding, quite apart from politics, that our assistance here may be the most influential thing we can do.
CROWLEY: Looking across what is happening in the Middle East now from Bahrain, to Libya, to Yemen, where are you the most concerned?
LUGAR: Well, I think it's simply a question of how each of these countries works out the problem, they have aged leadership. By that I mean 60-, 70-, 80-year-olds, a majority of the population may be 25 and under. When the 25s didn't know what was going on in the rest of the world, that was one thing, they now know.
They know they are not getting their fair share, that life is not going to be good for them. As a result, given hunger problems, other economic difficulties, they have come to the fore. So as a result the question is, will, as in the case of the Libyans, the protesters simply be shot?
Thus far the Libyan police and army have stayed loyal to Muammar Gadhafi. Maybe they will continue to and shoot the protesters. Small country, not many protesters.
But I would just say by and large most of the governments are coming to accommodation. They are beginning to talk about more representation, democracy, hope for youth, all the rest of this.
Now whether they are successful, whether they make it to the finish line, in most cases the armies of each of these countries will be essential, and they have very different relationships to the rulers. CROWLEY: And finally and quickly, a Hamas official has said that Egypt has agreed to open the Rafah terminal, which allows import and export from Egypt into and out of Gaza. Is that a good or bad thing for Israel?
LUGAR: Well, it's the beginning of a very edgy relationship between the new Egypt, whoever is in control, and Israel. The fact the two Iranian ships either have gone through, as the Iranians claim or haven't yet made it but are going to be given that privilege is significant, plus the 300 or so people going back and forth into Palestine each year. I think, you know, this is a very great dilemma that the Israelis see, that we see. Once again we'll have to be helpful diplomatically, but it's something that's going to have to be worked out on the ground between the two parties.
CROWLEY: Richard Lugar, it is always a pleasure.
LUGAR: Thank you, Candy.
CROWLEY: Thank you for joining us.
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