MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript

Interview

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REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C.: Of course.

HAYES: The soon to be ranking Democrat on the oversight committee, Congressman Elijah Cummings, has criticized Congressman Issa for his partisan tone. How much of this do you think of this--how much of this do you think is bluster, attention-getting, and how much do you think we"re going to be really seeing the committee used in a kind of hyper-partisan fashion?

NORTON: Well, candidly, I was surprised to hear Darrell Issa use the word "corrupt" when applied to the president of the United States. I mean, whatever you think about Barack Obama, he is seen as Mr. Clean Family Man.

And then, of course, he walked it back in a number of ways, now it"s the administration that"s corrupt--no, it"s really all of this--all of this spending is inherently corrupt.

This is--Darrell Issa is a guy who is seen on the committee as tough, smart, and articulate. Usually that kind of over-the-top language comes from the least articulate members of the committee.

(LAUGHTER)

NORTON: Now, what he is trying to do on the other hand is to be credible. So, why walk out--walk through your own credibility this way? When I say he"s trying to be credible, look, he says he"s not going to call the top people in the agencies. He wants to call the people who know something about what"s really going on. He says he"s more interested in being an accountant.

It does look like, on the one hand, he has some sense that his own credibility as the chair is important and when he--when you face him with the cameras, he kind of loses his head. He"s not Darrell Issa anymore--at least not the Darrell Issa who was the ranking member who seemed to choose his words far more carefully.

HAYES: That"s an interesting point. I mean, it does seem like just from interacting a little bit with their--the Darrell Issa press operation which is formidable, it does seem like they are concerned about the chairman"s--the now chairman"s reputation as sort of not a partisan hack. And I think the reason for that, right, is because the last time we went through this, which was the era of this committee during the Clinton years with the Republican Congress, a time during which you served on the committee if I"m not mistaken--

NORTON: Indeed.

HAYES: We had thousands of dollars and dozens of hours were spent dealing with subpoena from the Republican committee and we had what really amounted to an absurd, absurd witch hunt in which the committee devolved into. Are you scared of that happening again?

NORTON: Clearly, Mr. Issa is, because he wants to separate himself from that precedent and that precedent was just this awful. This is how awful it was--after all of those investigations of cabinet member after cabinet member, with special counsel appointed to all of them, no one was found in violation. That"s what wasting government money is all about.

HAYES: Exactly.

NORTON: Now, Issa says I don"t want to do that. I want to look at real programs.

Well, if he looks at real programs let me tell him something--you know, Democrats kind of like investigations.

HAYES: Right.

NORTON: Even when we"re in power, we kind of like it because we like government. We like looking and seeing what"s happened. We"ve had some investigations of our own administration. So why not take us as partners rather than to repeat what looks like what could be the worst--if the word corrupt is seen as indicative--the worst indicators from the last time the Republicans controlled the committee?

I think he wants to avoid that and maybe since he walked the language back, maybe he really is trying there to say, wait a minute. That wasn"t me. You all got--I was talking out of my head. It"s these cameras. They do things to you.

That does surprise me because I think the cameras would be interested in everything that Issa said no matter what he said, because at this point there"s very great interest in what kinds of investigations are the Republicans likely to do of the Obama administration.

HAYES: Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, killing Darrell Issa with kindness this evening, the Democratic delegate from D.C., thanks so much for your time tonight. I appreciate it.

NORTON: My pleasure.

HAYES: The sky is falling. It"s the end of the world and we have only our marshmallow peeps to save us. Fear not, my friends. There is "Debunktion" at the junction--coming up.

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