MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Let"s start with the debate over tax cuts. U.S. congressman Jim Moran"s a Democrat from Virginia and Congressman Brian Bilbray"s a Republican from California.

Congressman Bilbray, you first. Are you for--where are you on these Bush tax cuts, which are set to terminate for everyone this January?

REP. BRIAN BILBRAY ®, CALIFORNIA: Well, Chris, I wasn"t there when they were passed, but the fact is, I think it"s the worst time to be talking about kicking in a new tax increase anywhere along the board. And you know that. It"s a--basically, the biggest problem here is the fact that we can"t take--continue to think that we"re going to take money out of the economy and keep the economy strong.

And I"m kind of I"m interesting because I"ve been listening for 10 years people saying that all the tax cuts of Bush were only for the wealthy. And now I"m starting to hear that, Oh, we"re only--there was some of it or a large portion that might have been for the middle class and we won"t touch that part. It seems inconsistent with what I"ve been hearing for the last 10 years, and you got to admit that.

MATTHEWS: So you want to have--keep all the Bush tax cuts for the next 10 years, as you have for the last 10 years.

BILBRAY: I think we darn well maintain it right now. And I don"t think we have a right to ask the voters or the public to pay more taxes when we"ve already proven that we"re mismanaging what we"ve got across the board. We ought to go back to the--what we did in the late "90s, and that"s say, Look, let"s rein in our expenditure, our spending problem is the real problem, and allow the economy to grow past and beyond the debt, like we did in the late "90s.

MATTHEWS: Yes, everybody says that. Everybody says that, Congressman. We have a $1.4 trillion, $1.7 trillion range of debt--deficit this year right now, and nobody"s talking about cutting out a deficit--government spending by $1.4 trillion. I mean, everybody says, Let"s get rid of spending. You don"t have a program to get rid of a trillion-and-a-half dollars in spending, do you?

BILBRAY: We actually got this started back in the "90s by saying we set a standard that we"re going to hit the threshold. I mean, you start off with little things like, why are we giving away surplus government funds to local governments or different non-profits instead of spending it and putting it on the market?

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: Ninety-eight billion--I mean, a billion dollars just in un

funds that are being given away in inappropriate funds that even the president talked about this last week.

MATTHEWS: OK. All right. Well...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Next time--I"m waiting for somebody to give me--well, actually, Paul--Paul Ryan"s giving me a list, but it"s hard to come up with a list of actual spending cuts because nobody likes to be identified with those.

Congressman Moran...

BILBRAY: (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: Well, that"s true. I mean, it seems to be (ph) for tax cuts...

BILBRAY: Well, start with...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: This doesn"t take a lot of guts to be for tax cuts for everybody, is it?

BILBRAY: How about--how about...

MATTHEWS: Admit it"s easy. Admit it"s easy, sir, to be for tax cuts.

BILBRAY: Actually...

MATTHEWS: It"s easy.

BILBRAY: It is--it is easy to do that. It"s tough to be for saying, No pay raises for the federal government through the next year. Let"s start with that. Let"s just start by saying--look, everybody"s hurting, and those of us from the federal government are going to lead off on...

MATTHEWS: Well, that"s popular! Screw the bureaucrats! Everybody loves to do that.

BILBRAY: Well, no, it"s also...

MATTHEWS: The easiest politics in America is to say, I"m going to let the deficit stay real big. And by the way, I"m going to make it a little bigger by cutting taxes.

BILBRAY: No, you"re not--what you"re doing is going to say the spending and the size of the federal government is the problem. We"re trying to spend our way out of this problem.

MATTHEWS: OK. OK.

BILBRAY: And that"s how we got into the problem!

MATTHEWS: One last question. Do you believe that we actually increase government revenues when we cut taxes?

BILBRAY: Absolutely because when it--when it stimulates the economy and...

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: Clinton proved--wait a minute. Clinton proved...

MATTHEWS: Well, then let"s cut taxes...

BILBRAY: ... it worked when he cut...

MATTHEWS: ... down to 1 percent.

BILBRAY: ... when he cut taxes...

MATTHEWS: Let"s get it down to 1 percent! Let"s get it down to 1 percent, we"ll balance the budget in five minutes, by your theory.

BILBRAY: Look at California. We raised taxes, and look what we"ve done.

MATTHEWS: OK. All right.

BILBRAY: I mean, Chris, we"re driving companies out...

MATTHEWS: No, by your theory, the--why don"t we just keep lowering taxes, sir, until we get them down to zero because by your theory, every time we lower taxes, we get more revenue coming in the door. This is like the loaves and the fishes!

BILBRAY: No, no, no, no! There"s obviously...

MATTHEWS: This is the New Testament.

BILBRAY: ... a balance, Chris. Look, I was a mayor. I was the chairman of a county.

MATTHEWS: OK, OK.

BILBRAY: There"s a balance there. The problem is...

MATTHEWS: This is popular.

BILBRAY: ... we"re out of proportion.

MATTHEWS: I know everything you"re saying. The voters out there, on the Republican side especially, are saying, Thank God for Congressman Bilbray...

BILBRAY: No, no!

MATTHEWS: ... because he"s going to cut our taxes. And just don"t tell me it"s courageous.

BILBRAY: Chris, it"s independents. Listen to the independents!

MATTHEWS: All right.

BILBRAY: They"re the people that are saying, Look...

MATTHEWS: OK, OK.

BILBRAY: ... they want a moderate approach here, but the attitude that we"ve reached since--is that--spend, spend, spend. They didn"t like Bush spending.

MATTHEWS: I know.

BILBRAY: They didn"t like the Republican spending. And now you expect them to like the Democrats spending more?

MATTHEWS: No, it"s just that...

BILBRAY: They"re not going to do it! The independents are...

MATTHEWS: Your party used to be "pay as you go." Your party used to be balanced budge, pay as you--the Jerry Ford party, the Bob Dole, the Bob Taft party was, if you"re going to spend a dollar, you"re going to raise a dollar. And you would always be honest about that. Now you say, magically, just keep cutting taxes, and somehow the government will balance its books magically, when nothing else in American economic life works that way.

BILBRAY: Well, first of all, Chris, there"s nothing magic for those of us have been in local government. The fact is, when the private sector has the funds...

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: ... they generate the revenue...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, let me get balance in our timing here. Congressman Moran, you just heard the argument, cutting taxes increases receipts. Somehow, the government increases the amount of money it collects by lowering taxes. Just keep doing it, he says, it works.

REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: Well, it"s not the first time we"ve heard that argument. We"ve been hearing it for decades. The fact is, we need to do both. George H.W. Bush, the 41st president, did it the right way. He raised revenue and he cut spending. And then Bill Clinton followed on his lead with a balanced budget and created a surplus. Taxes went up. In fact, 39.6 percent for the highest level. But 23 million jobs were created. And it was the most after-tax revenue ever generated during that eight-year period by the most wealthy people in the country.

The fact is that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts generated 13 percent more revenue that came back to us, so 87 percent was unpaid for. It"s $2.3 trillion that has been added to our deficit. It"s the principal cause of the deficit. Taxes...

MATTHEWS: This is the Bush tax cuts.

MORAN: Is the Bush tax cuts, George W. Bush tax cuts. And what we need to do now is to do what Clinton and his father did to get us back into balance. Today we have 14.8 percent of GDP...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why do you think the Clinton administration ended up with a surplus, when Ronald Reagan, as much as he"s beloved these days, did not end up with a surplus? He had a deficit every single year and growing. Why do you say that this program of cutting taxes somehow yields a balanced budget or brings back fiscal sanity somehow? Congressman Bilbray?

BILBRAY: Chris, because Democrats and Republicans...

MATTHEWS: And when does it happen?

BILBRAY: Wait a minute. Wait. Democrats and Republicans, Clinton and the Republicans, finally got spending under control to the point to where the economy could catch up. That"s why it worked. There was one time that you saw a Democratic president and a Republican Congress finally -- and it"s (INAUDIBLE) Let"s face it, it was a tough time, but we finally wrestled down the expansion of expenditures. Right now, we"re going just the opposite and...

MATTHEWS: Who was the last Republican...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Who was the last Republican president to balance the budget, now that you"re the party of fiscal responsibility? When"s the last Republican president? You had a Republican president under Bush, George W., you had it under Reagan. You had at least half control of the Congress. When"s the last time a responsibility president has yielded a balanced budget?

BILBRAY: You...

MATTHEWS: Or a surplus?

BILBRAY: You had a Republican...

MATTHEWS: Just give me a year.

BILBRAY: ... Congress that allowed a Democrat to do it, and that"s a bipartisan kind of effort. We may--no, Bush...

MORAN: It was actually Dwight Eisenhower.

BILBRAY: Bush went over the top after the war and used the war as an excuse to do domestic spending. And the Republicans made that mistake, but it doesn"t mean that the Democrats have any reason to do the other. And that"s why the independents are up-raising (SIC). That"s why this issue is going to be a real...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

BILBRAY: ... the top issue. And independents are deciding this, Chris. It"s not Democrat/Republican partisanship...

(CROSSTALK)

BILBRAY: ... it"s nonpartisan are really mad about this.

MORAN: You can identify cuts that total less than 1 percent of the budget and a small fraction of the deficit. We"re going to have to take a comprehensive approach. And the first thing we need do is to get revenue back into a normal range. Normally, it"s 20 to 21 percent. And that"s basically what we"re spending, 20.6 percent. But today, with the stimulus, it"s more than that. But generally, that"s about what it comes to.

You can"t balance the budget, you can"t treat your grandchildren fairly when you"re only bringing in less than 15 percent of GDP and you"re spending over 20 percent. It"s almost criminal what the Republican Party is willing to steal from their grandchildren and our grandchildren.

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: ... just because it"s politically popular, Brian.

BILBRAY: Let"s go back to always (ph) spending. Let"s start by going back to a baseline that"s defensible. Let"s talk about, take what"s left of the stimulus and not spend it. Let"s take what"s left of TARP and not spend it.

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: Let"s prove to the American people that we"re willing to take the tough decisions!

MORAN: Talk to Governor Schwarzenegger, who still has billions of dollars that are unspent but are designated...

BILBRAY: And it"s not helping California!

MORAN: ... for road projects and infrastructure projects.

MATTHEWS: Let"s take a look at one of your leaders. Here"s one of your leaders, the majority whip--or actually, minority whip, Eric Cantor of Virginia. Here he is on MSNBC with Savannah Guthrie on "The Daily Rundown" this morning. Let"s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, HOST: Will you just simply acknowledge that passing these tax cuts worsens the budget deficit problem? I mean, you can"t deny that, right?

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), MINORITY WHIP: Savannah, let"s look at it through the prism of the working families who are seeking jobs and the small business people who are creating them. It"s not--it"s not a tax cut they"re looking for. They don"t want a tax hike!

GUTHRIE: I was just wondering if you had--if you had any dispute with the notion that it does exacerbate the deficit picture.

CANTOR: Well, I--what I--what I said in the beginning is if you have less revenues coming into the federal government and more expenditures, what does that add up to? Certainly, you"re going to dig the hole deeper.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, there he is, Congressman Bilbray, your leader. Your whip is now admitting that if you cut taxes, you"re increasing the deficit. He just said it. Do you want me to repeat it? That"s your leader. Why would he say something like that that runs against your orthodoxy?

BILBRAY: The fact is, look, Chris, you can"t...

MATTHEWS: Well, the fact is he just said that. Why did he just say that cutting taxes at this point is going to yield a lower revenue, and therefore a bigger deficit?

BILBRAY: Because we"re not talking about...

MATTHEWS: He just said a contradiction...

BILBRAY: ... cutting...

MATTHEWS: ... of what you just said.

BILBRAY: We"re not even talking about cutting taxes! We"re talking about not allowing an increase (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: Continuing the Bush tax cuts is what we"re talking about.

And that"s what he was talking about.

BILBRAY: And that is maintaining the status quo...

MATTHEWS: Are you in disagreement...

BILBRAY: ... of what (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: ... with Eric Cantor? Just tell me you disagree with him, we"ll be on the same page.

BILBRAY: I am in disagreement...

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: ... with anybody that thinks that we can get ourselves out of the mess by raising more taxes on the American people!

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: We got--look, the federal government...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, well, thank you. This is an interesting debate, and I think the American people ought to be paying attention to it. The Republican philosophy is supply-side, the belief that if you cut the tax rates, somehow, the overall amount of revenue will come up. Somehow, we"ll begin to balance the budget. That"s an argument that you can argue and argue and argue, and we"ll always be looking for evidence of that. Congressman...

MORAN: And we know what works, and we know that hasn"t worked.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you...

(CROSSTALK)

BILBRAY: It worked in the "90s with...

MORAN: ... children and grandchildren.

BILBRAY: ... the Republicans and Democrats working together. Yes, we saw bipartisanship...

MATTHEWS: OK.

BILBRAY: ... in the late "90s.

MATTHEWS: It"s also very good to look at history and which presidents have been successful. Harry Truman and Bill Clinton I think are the ones that have balanced the budgets.

BILBRAY: And they had...

MATTHEWS: Thank you...

BILBRAY: ... a Republican Congress to help them, that makes it possible.

MATTHEWS: Well, Harry didn"t. Anyway, thank you, Congressman Jim Moran and Congressman Brian Bilbray.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source