MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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One of the critics is Ohio Democrat Congressman Dennis Kucinich.

Congressman, I want to review these numbers with you. I"m sure you"re familiar with them. Here"s a comparison of the KIAs, our men and women getting killed over there. Last year in April, May and June--you can see how the numbers have gone up in each case, and each month, the last three months of this year, all higher than the last--the parallel numbers last year.

Does that tell you we"re being more aggressive on the ground or does it mean our position is deteriorating?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, there"s more troops in there.

There"s a surge that"s been going on.

But it also raises questions about whether a military solution is possible in Afghanistan. And I think that is what Congress eventually is going to have to decide, whether we give another $30 billion to keep this war going on and on and on, or whether we finally say, look, there is no military solution, we have to do this another way.

MATTHEWS: What would be an alternative policy?

KUCINICH: Well, we have to first recognize that, you know, Afghanistan has never had a western-style democracy and it"s not going to. It"s an Islamic country. We need to prepare for an Islamic government in Afghanistan. We cannot impose our way of life on the people there.

We need to see that there should be a U.N. panel that would oversee the safe disposition of Afghan mineral resources which now are being talked about being in excess of $1 trillion. We"re going to eventually have to get out of there, and we need to make sure that the people of Afghanistan who live in abject poverty are going to have an opportunity to enjoy the fruits of their own resources and not continue to be exploited as happens so often in nations that are under occupation.

MATTHEWS: Let"s talk about the politics over there, because as you"re suggesting, it"s more important than the battle front. You know, back in "63, when we started to get in real trouble in Vietnam, the Kennedy administration began to suspect that Diem, our ally over there, the president of South Vietnam, he wasn"t elected but he was the president, was engaged in secret talks through the French with the North Vietnamese to possibly cut a separate peace. That may have had something to do with our decision to support a coup over there which eventually overthrew him and killed him.

Now the question is: what"s our relationship with Karzai? We"re getting words in our major press now, Congressman, that Karzai is thinking of a separate peace with the Taliban. What"s that tell you about where we"re headed?

KUCINICH: Well, it"s very interesting when you see how Karzai was so celebrated in the United States a month ago, that he actually was brought to the floor of the United States Senate, almost unprecedented--at the same time that we learn of these vast mineral deposits and now it"s being talked about. Karzai is capable of cutting a separate deal with the Taliban.

But the question is, what does the Taliban need him for? The fact of the matter is that the Karzai family has been excelling at theft, stealing from the people of Afghanistan, building--he and his cronies, not President Karzai personally but President Karzai"s family members and their cronies building in Dubai, taking the wealth of the nation out of there, all the while the war is going on.

Look, I don"t think there"s any confidence that Karzai is going to be able to deliver a western style democracy, anywhere in the United States Congress, and I don"t think the confidence is likely to be in Afghanistan. I think that the Taliban eventually are going to have to be dealt with and the sooner we understand that, the better we"re going to be.

MATTHEWS: Well, the scary thing is we"re in there alone. We don"t really trust Karzai. The Pakistani apparently, the people of Pakistan--whatever the government thinks--the people of Pakistan like the Taliban, right? They"re all together. They suspect Karzai is an Indian agent and then we"re sitting in there trying to defend the guy they think, the Pakistanis and the Pashtuns all think is an Indian agent, right? It"s so strange the situation for our soldiers.

KUCINICH: Our troops are meeting enemies on all sides. Let me tell you how bad it is, Chris. There"s an investigation going on right now about whether or not contractors are hiring insurgents to either attack or not attack our troops as would best befit the interests of those contractors. This is an untenable situation, intolerable situation--

MATTHEWS: Yes.

KUCINICH: -- for the men and women who wear the U.S. uniform who are doing everything they can to defend this country"s interests. But why aren"t we defending them, why aren"t we looking at this situation and saying, look, there is no military solution, let"s plan an exit right now?

MATTHEWS: OK. Your voice--let"s see--thanks for coming on--I think we needed to hear it.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio--

KUCINICH: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: -- a man who thinks we"ve got to get out of Afghanistan.

When we return, let me finish with some thoughts about these Republicans who are defending BP, the company responsible for the biggest environmental disaster in our country"s history.

You"re watching HARDBALL only on MSNBC.

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