CNN "Larry King Live" - Transcript

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

KING: Governor Bill Richardson is the Democratic governor of New Mexico. He joins us from Santa Fe. Alberto Gonzales served as United States Attorney General for President George W. Bush. He's a visiting professor at Texas Tech University, joining us from Lubbock. I believe, General Gonzales, this is the first time you've spoken out publicly about this law. What's your take?

ALBERTO GONZALES, FMR. UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, you know, Larry, we have a great country because of a diversity that flows from immigrants, quite frankly. I think that racial profiling is wrong. It is wrong because it's unlawful. But it's also wrong because I think it runs counter to the very essence of our country.

I'd ask you whether or not this law constitutes racial profiling. I think that remains to be seen, quite frankly. I'm concerned, like everyone else, about the vagueness of the law, and about the discretion given to law enforcement. But if we set aside this law because of concerns for potential abuse, that would be an argument for setting aside a host of laws, virtually every tool given to law enforcement, because of potential abuse.

I think we need to see what Arizona does in terms of guidance, in terms of promulgating regulations to explain how this discretion is to be exercised, and then I think we're in a much better position to determine whether or not this is unlawful racial profiling.

KING: Governor Richardson, what's your response to that?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Well, I know the attorney general is acknowledging the potential of racial profiling. I think it's going to lead to racial profiling. I think this law's unconstitutional. My hope is the Justice Department, the Obama administration, contests it on the ground that you have state/local law enforcement trying to enforce a federal law.

Immigration is federal. It's very clear. And what this is going to do is not just lead to racial profiling, but you're also having other states like Alabama, like Minnesota, like Georgia, just in the last few days, contemplate similar laws. It's going to be increasing a lot of tension among the Hispanic community in this country.

You know 30 percent -- I notice Carlos, his family -- 30 percent of Arizonians are Hispanic. And if you're dark completed or if you're going to an Arizona Diamondback game, a police officer can come up and talk to you on the grounds that you look suspicious, and ask you for your papers. That is clearly racial profiling. And I believe that's going to happen. So I hope that this law is struck down.

KING: General, if you were the current attorney general, would you attack it before the Supreme Court?

GONZALES: Well, I think we have to look at a number of things. I think the governor is correct. I think you need to look to see whether or not has the federal government preempted this field. So I think it is an open question as to whether or not Arizona can even legislate in this area. And that is something obviously the Department of Justice is looking at. And that is what we would be looking at.

Let me just say this, with respect to racial profiling, if you can show me that the intent of this law is to facilitate racial profiling, or that it results systematically in racial profiling, then I'll be the first in line to condemn it. All I'm saying is I'd like to see what Arizona is going to do to address the issue of vagueness, to reassure the people of Arizona that we've got a law that's effective and a law that also doesn't result in racial profiling.

KING: All right, I'm going to take a break and have Bill Richardson respond to the statement by the former attorney general, basically which is "let's see how it works." We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: All right, Governor Richardson, the former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said let's see how it works. As we look, by the way, at the border in Nogales, Arizona, downtown Olvera Street in Los Angeles. What about giving it a chance, governor?

RICHARDSON: I don't think that's practical or realistic or the right thing to do, Larry. I think what we need to do is test the constitutionality of this law. I don't think it's going to stand up because this is a federal responsibility. You're going to cause enormous tension among the Hispanic community in America.

I think what we need to do is have the Homeland Security Department, instead of in Arizona overseeing this problem. They should go after drug criminals, big criminals. And what we need -- and I give credit to the Bush administration for having done this, and now the Obama administration for pushing it -- is federal comprehensive immigration, a legalization plan, where it's earned. There's accountability.

Secondly, verification of workers. And, third, more border security, more National Guard, more border patrol, more technology on the border. We have drug cartels. We have violence on the border. I experience it right next to Governor Brewer in Arizona. But let's take the law into our own hands and do something that is not only going to work, but is going to violate our country's human rights. That's my view.

KING: General, the Democrats offered a new proposal today. Do we need a tougher federal law?

GONZALES: Larry, let me clarify one point. I'm not saying let's see how it works as much as I'm saying that I'm not sure you can mount a successful court challenge as to racial profiling without seeing how the law is implemented. I think you can immediately challenge as to whether or not Arizona has even the right to legislate in this field. Again, I worry that a successful court challenge might not succeed without seeing how this law is implemented in Arizona. Now, with respect to the federal law, I think it's high time for the federal government to pass legislation to deal with immigration. In a post-9/11 world, we need to know who's entered this country and why -- we need a policy that's consistent with our economic policy and immigration policy consistent with our national security policy, including many of the things Governor Richardson just talked about.

KING: Governor, isn't it the federal responsibility in this?

RICHARDSON: Yeah, it is totally, Larry, because what we're trying to do -- and what we should try to do is pass a law that brings more border control, more border technology, National Guard. We also have to have a verification system for workers. You have to deal with employers that illegally hire workers.

Then most importantly, I think as the attorney general said, what are you going to do with the 11 million undocumented workers in America today? You can't throw them out. Many of them are contributing to the economy. But if there are those that, for instance, do not pass a background check -- I think they should all speak English, they should all get in back of the line for those that are trying to get here legally.

Those I think are the criteria that we should use, not give them citizenship. I think that would be wrong. But an earned legalization. Then you have a level playing field. I think, Larry, you have to do all three at the same time. I think that the proposals from the Congress, first border security, then legalization, it's not going to work. You have to do it simultaneously.

KING: Didn't the Bush administration pretty much propose that, what Governor Richardson just said?

GONZALES: We tried, Larry. President Bush understood that in order to get part of the package, it would have to get passed all at one time. Of course, he was unsuccessful in doing that. I think what's being lost in all the debate about what's going on in Arizona is the fact the federal government has failed. The federal government has a responsibility to deal with the immigration issue. And they -- and the federal government has failed today in addressing it.

I agree with many of the points made by Governor Richardson. I know one point that I disagree with many of my Republican friends, with respect to the 13 million to 15 million undocumented aliens in this country. Some believe they need to leave the country before any consideration of legalization in the future. I'm not sure that's practical. We had many discussions about this in the Bush administration. There was serious doubt as to whether or not that was even practical.

We need a policy that will work. And those kinds of notions I think while it may have some merits and benefits, again, it's about -- it's about looking at a policy, passing a policy that is effective and one that is efficient.

KING: We'll have more ahead in this very intelligent discussion on a very emotional topic. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: We're back with Governor Bill Richardson and former Attorney General Gonzales. We'll get back to their discussion. First, let's check in again with Carlos Diaz on downtown L.A.'s famous Olvera Street for more opinions about the new law.

DIAZ: Larry, in all honesty, we were trying to find people who actually are in support of this new law and new bill. We've had some difficulties, to be honest with you. A lot of people we talked to are very emotional about this, are against it. We have some students here from MiraCosta College. We have an English professor, Dr. John Kerwin (ph). We talked earlier. This is something that affects you as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does. Many of my students have come to the country recently. And the work that I do is to help them adjust to the challenges of this country. Arizona's our neighbor. So we're rather close. I know it's a concern for our students.

But I think, like the border fence, I like this is going to be another futile gesture against change that's inevitable. And ultimately, I think really our challenge is how to find creative ways to embrace the future. And that future means a lot of change for this country.

DIAZ: Are your students, when you talk to them, are they outraged by this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are. I think they're affected personally. Many of them have family that have been affected by immigration policy. And it's made adjusting to this country extremely difficult. So part of what our work is, is to try to stabilize their situations, to provide them with the tools to move forward in this society, to give them the American dream.

DIAZ: Thank you, I really appreciate it. Downtown L.A., the emotions are running very high about this bill.

KING: Thank you, Carlos Diaz, downtown Los Angeles. Let's take a call for Governor Richardson and General Gonzales. Sierra Vista, Arizona, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry. This is Bob.

KGIN: Yeah, what's your question?

CALLER: I have the utmost respect for Governor Richardson and Mr. Gonzales. I live in Arizona, Cochese County. We had a rancher killed here. I'm a white Anglo Saxon Protestant. Ever since 9/11, when I travel, I have to go through security checks in an airport. I don't feel that that's violating my constitutional rights or I'm being discriminated against. We're just trying to protect the safety of our country. And that's what we're trying to do in Arizona with this law. We're trying to protect our citizens.

KING: Governor?

RICHARDSON: Well, look, I respect that gentleman a lot. Cochese County is right next to New Mexico. And that rancher had ties to New Mexico, who was killed. There's border violence. There are cartels coming in, drugs coming in. The answer, I believe, is not to take the law into your own hands and discriminate against potentially anybody that looks Hispanic that might be an immigrant from Mexico.

The answer is, in Arizona, as it is in my borders, we need some help. We need more National Guardsmen. We have some. I deployed 35 recently. We need more border patrol. We need more technology at the border. I agree, we don't need a fence. You build a 10-foot fence, you'll have 11-foot ladders. That's not going to work.

I think, at the same time, we should look at immigration as not just affecting Hispanics or people coming from Mexico. If you reform our legal immigration laws, that feed that, too, it affects Europeans. It affects Central Americans. It affects Haitians. It affects all of us, Larry.

KING: I have to get a break and then we'll have a response from General Alberto Gonzales.

Now, our CNN Hero of the Week. At the busy border between India and Nepal stands a woman stand committed to stopping any age-old industry that today has become increasingly lucrative and dangerous, the kidnapping and trafficking of women and girls. From Nepal to brothels in India, Anuradna Koirala leads these raids, intercepts kidnappings, and prosecutes pimps and rehabilitates. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANURADNA KOIRALA, CNN HERO: If someone comes and says, I want to make your child a prostitute, they would shoot them. But here families, they are tricked all the time. The border between India and Nepal, it is the conduit point of trafficking. Once they are alone, there is no way to escape.

I am Anuradna Koirala. It is my strong hope to stop every Nepali girl from being trafficked.

When we go to the border, we are intercepting call girls. After the rescue, the girl is taken back. They are totally psychologically broken. We give them whatever work they want to do, whatever training they want. There is always a small scar. But today I'm something new in my life. They are my strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Quite a lady. You want to nominate someone changing the world? Visit CNN.com/Heroes. Right back with General Gonzales and Governor Richardson after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: General Gonzales, how do you react to the caller who brings up what happened at airports? Are airports different than Arizona?

GONZALES: Well, listen, I'm all in favor of security at our airports. I'm all in favor of securing our borders. I want to make one point, Larry, and I'm sure Governor Richardson agrees with this. Both he and I have met a lot of people in the law enforcement community. I would say 97 to 99 percent of them serve with integrity and good faith. I'm sure and confident that the law enforcement community in Arizona will implement this law in a way that meets the goals of the legislature.

I worry about racial profiling, no question about it. I also worry about the fact that we don't have federal comprehensive immigration policy. I worry about discrimination. But I also worry about the fact that laws are being ignored. I think disregard of the laws breeds further disobedience. That's not the America I know

KING: Let's take another call. Eugene, Oregon, hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry. Thank you for taking my call. I'm against this law. Let's be honest about this one thing, Larry, no one is willing to admit the U.S. has a hunger for cheap labor. And who else is going to do that cheap labor other than illegal immigrants? If we get rid of the illegal immigrants, our economy will crash even more. Nobody is talking about that issue. I want to know why.

KING: Governor?

RICHARDSON: Well, look, there's no question that Medicare, Social Security buttressed by undocumented workers -- our economy, in a global economy, we need every possible person to compete. There's also a need for legal immigration reform, not just illegal, that allows us to bring more workers that are skilled.

I think the Obama administration is on the right path here, pushing the Congress, I think, like President Bush did, to pass comprehensive immigration. I think we need to do it this year, Larry, along with an energy bill, along with efforts to improve the economy. The Congress has -- we have eight months to go. Why can't they do all these things that need to be done before there's more tension, before other states take the law into their own hands? This is an important human rights issue for this country.

KING: General Gonzales, do you believe this might be an example that there is still, unfortunately, a lot of racism in America?

GONZALES: I believe that it still exists, Larry. We have an African-American president, an African-American attorney general. We've had a Hispanic attorney general. We just recently had an Hispanic justice on the Supreme Court. Nonetheless, we still need our civil rights law. There's still a need for the Civil Rights Division at the Department of Justice. It does exist.

I couldn't agree more with Governor Richardson about the need to have comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level today, not next year, but today. It is that important as far as I'm concerned. I said earlier that it needs to be consistent with our economic policy. I agree also with the Governor that it ought to include additional visas for skilled workers, additional visa for unskilled workers in those areas where Americans simply will not work, cannot work, or have no interest or desire in taking jobs in that area. And so, again, it's got to be comprehensive in order to be effective.

KING: We're running close on time. Governor, what do you think about boycotting Arizona?

RICHARDSON: I don't think that's a good idea. That hurts a lot of people in Arizona that don't agree with this law. It hurts some 100,000 Hispanics that depend on tourism. I think we need to do it constructively in the Congress with our laws. I'm not too crazy about boycotts, despite the fact that I think Arizona and its legislature made a huge mistake. They're our neighbor state, a good state. I don't believe that makes much sense to have economic boycotts

KING: Thirty seconds, general, what do you think of a boycott?

GONZALES: I don't see that that would be effective and really gain you much, Larry, quite frankly. I think this is a very emotional issue. Obviously, there are tough legal issues involved. Like many things, many disputes in our country, ultimately it's going to be resolved in the courts.

KING: Thank you both, very much, for a most interesting discussion, Governor Bill Richardson, General Alberto Gonzales.

Are space aliens out to conquer planet Earth? Steven Hawking, maybe the brightest person on the planet, thinks it's possible and we're going to talk about it tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE from Washington.

Right now, "AC 360" with Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay?

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