FDCH TRANSCRIPTS
Congressional Hearings
Mar. 6, 2003
Senate Government Affairs Subcommittee on Oversight of Government Management, the Federal Workforce and the District of Columbia Holds Hearing on Evaluating Human Capital at NASA
VOINOVICH:
The Subcommittee on the Oversight of Government Management, the Federal Workforce and the District of Columbia will come to order. Good morning. And thank all of you for coming to today's hearing, which is titled, "Evaluating Human Capital at NASA."
Due to the location of the Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, I have always felt close to the NASA family. Through my work as mayor of Cleveland, governor of Ohio and now as a United States senator, I have enjoyed my work with this important federal agency.
Several years ago, I had the good fortune of getting to know the crew of STS-70, which was an all-Ohio crew, but for one. And I made them an honorary Ohioan. And a picture of that crew hangs in office here in Washington.
In considering the men and women who have accepted the call of the nation to participate in manned space flight since the 1960s, I want to take this opportunity to extend my condolences to Administrator O'Keefe and the entire NASA family as they continue to come to terms for the tragic loss of the Space Shuttle Columbia and its brave crew.
At the outset of this hearing, let me be clear. I have not asked the administrator to come before the subcommittee this morning to discuss this tragedy. I believe such questioning is premature, as the Accident Investigation Board continues its important work.
Today, however, we will examine an important element of NASA's managementits workforce, a small, but very important segment of the federal government's 1.8 million civilian employees. Each day, 20,000 dedicated individuals at NASA facilitiessuch as the Kennedy Space Center in Florida, the Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland, the Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Ohio and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California and otherspush the limits of science and engineering for the benefit of our nation and all of mankind.
This is the 11th oversight hearing the subcommittee has held on the formidable human capital challenges confronting the federal government. Some of those hearings took place during the time when Administrator O'Keefe was serving the nation in his previous appointment as deputy director of the Office of Budget and Management.
Over the past couple of years, we have made great strides in addressing these problems by enacting legislative solutions and implementing administrative changes. Nevertheless, strategic human capital management remains on GAO's high risk list.
In addition, GAO has identified NASA's contract management system as high risk. It is my understanding that NASA has put together a proposal containing the workforce flexibilities it needs to meet its mission. My hope is that the proposal also addresses the needs of the agency in regards to implementing and overseeing its contract and financial management systems to achieve success and remove the agency, in that regard, from the high risk area.
During my time as mayor of Cleveland and governor of Ohio, I worked to address the workforce challenges within our local and state governments. Working with a wide range of stakeholders, we successfully empowered our employees, while establishing a culture of quality management. Since coming to the Senate in 1999, I have stressed to my colleagues the urgency of the federal government's human capital challengesthe need to get the right people with the right skills at the right places at the right time.
Robust personnel management includes the ability to recruit the best candidates, hire people in a timely manner, award performance bonuses and other motivational tools to encourage retention and provide training and professional development opportunities and the flexibilities to shape and empower a balanced workforce. Good management includes the flexibility to act quickly and to compete in today's knowledge-based economy.
I applaud the Bush Administration for its commitment to address these personnel challenges by making human capital one of their five government initiatives in the president's management agenda. I'm also pleased that Congress enacted several important workforce reforms in the legislation to establish the Department of Homeland Security.
Despite these reforms, however, the demographics of NASA's workforce remain a very, very real concern. For example, 15 percent of its workforce currently is eligible to retire. That number climbs to 25 percent in just five years.
Also disconcerting is the fact that scientists and engineers over 60 outnumber those under 30 by nearly three to one. With so many eligible for retirement in the next few years, who knows how much institutional knowledge and expertise is going to walk out the door? This places the future of the agency at risk.
I would note that under Administrator O'Keefe's leadership, NASA has made headway in addressing its workforce challenges. The Office of Budget and Management has elevated NASA's overall status from red to yellow on the management scorecard for its human capital efforts, one of just a handful of federal agencies to achieve such an accomplishment.
NASA has also earned a green light for its progress for implementing the human capital management reforms outlined in the president's management agenda. I'm eager to hear what steps NASA has taken to achieve this success. I'm also hopeful to learn what plans NASA has for utilizing workforce flexibilities Congress enacted last November.
While we make progress, there is much work for Congress to do, which is why, in January, I introduced the Federal Workforce Flexibility Act. In reviewing Administrator O'Keefe's written testimony, I noticed many parallels in the reforms he is seeking for NASA.
For example, both the Federal Workforce Flexibility Act and NASA's proposal would allow more flexibility in offering enhanced recruitment, relocation and retention bonuses, making agencies more competitive in assembling a workforce. NASA is seeking the ability to offer enhanced leave benefits to mid-level professionals from the private sector.
After talking with leading national experts, I also included this benefit in my legislation. This is key to making the federal government an employer of choice, while recruiting top talent.
In addition, NASA has included in its proposal the authority to enter into workforce exchanges with the private sector. While these programs have long existed within the federal government, just last year, Congress enacted the Digital Tech Corps Act. As the chief Senate sponsor of this legislation, I believe its provisions will help agencies tap private sector talent in the IT field. We need them desperately today in the federal government.
A similar program at NASA would provide a vital tool for the agency to access talent in academia and offer NASA employees an opportunity to gain experiences from going outside the agency.
I'm interested in hearing from Administrator O'Keefe today about his proposals. I want you to know that I am planning to introduce legislation next week to help provide the reforms and flexibility NASA needs for its workforce. And I'm eager to here why your thoughts, Administrator O'Keefe, why it's so important.
We're very fortunate today to have with us someone I've known a long time and have high regard for, and that is to welcome Representative Sherry Boehlert of New York's 24th District. And he is chairman of the House Science Committee.
Having served since 1983 on the Science Committee, NASA's authorizing committee, and as chairman of that panel, beginning in the 107th Congress, Mr. Boehlert has taken a keen interest in NASA's workforce. The subcommittee looks forward to gaining the benefit of the chairman's experience and expertise concerning NASA.
I think it's really significant, Sherry, that you have been at this now since 1983. You've gotit's just wonderful to have somebody like you, that's chairman of a committee, that has such a background.
And we are so glad to have you here this morning. And I welcome your presence. And I am anxious to hear your testimony. Thank you.
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VOINOVICH:
Well, thank you very much.
I can't help but remember testimony that we had here over a year ago by Lee Hamilton. And he was testifying on the great need for scientists and engineers in this country and how we are really in very, very bad shape in terms of the availability of those people. And too often, many of them are coming from other countries to study here and then going back to their countries. And we need to produce a lot more engineers and scientists.
And one of the things that I don't think the public understands is that NASA has got to go out and compete for a limited number of these people. And if they don't have the tools that the private sector people have, they're not going to be able to attract them to NASA.
I wonder if you would like to comment on that at all, in terms of . . .
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VOINOVICH:
Well, thank you for being here today. And the only thing I'd ask you to do is to convince your colleagues over in the committee that has jurisdiction that we need to fast track this one.
BOEHLERT:
We'll do our best.
VOINOVICH:
There's some talk about, well, we want to wait until we do all the others. And I think that the situation is NASA requires speedy action to deal with their personnel problem. And if you could do what you can to influence some of your colleagues that we ought to move this ahead of maybe some of the other requests that have come to us, it would help me a great deal.
BOEHLERT:
I can assure you we'll do just that. And I look forward to a continuing partnership with you, senator.
VOINOVICH:
Thank you very much.
BOEHLERT:
Thank you.
VOINOVICH:
I'd like to welcome Senator Pryor here this morning.
PRYOR:
Thank you.
VOINOVICH:
Glad to have you on the subcommittee. With your background in government and management, I'm sure that you're going to be a real asset to this subcommittee and to the committee.
Would you like to make a statement before Administrator O'Keefe?
PRYOR:
I don't have a statement, thank you. And I look forward to working with you on this.
VOINOVICH:
Thank you.
I'm now delighted to introduce NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe. Administrator O'Keefe possesses an impressive career in public service to our nation. Prior to serving as NASA's 10th administrator, Mr. O'Keefe was appointed by President Bush to be the deputy director of the Office of Budget and Management.
In the 1990s, he served on the then-Defense Secretary Dick Cheney's team as comptroller of the Defense Department and secretary of the Navy. You must have been 18 when you did this, Seanduring the Bush Administration.
(LAUGHTER)
Mr. O'Keefe began his careerthat's Bush 41 -- with the federal government as a presidential management intern, as have two members of my current subcommittee staff. That's a wonderful program, that presidential management intern. We bring some wonderful people into government because of that program. And because of itif we hadn't had it, you might not be here today, Sean.
So we're really happy to have you here. And I'm looking forward to your testimony.
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VOINOVICH:
Mr. O'Keefe, last year, we gathered a lot of experts from around the country to talk about human capital. And as you know, the John F. Kennedy School made human capital a part of their executive sessions.
I had an opportunity to spend some time with some of the students there at Harvard. And I've since then, as a result of that experience, talked with some other students about the issue of coming to work in the federal government. One of the issues that came up was that we're not getting as many young people to come in the federal government because they see so much of the work in the federal government being farmed out to third parties. And rather than come to work for the federal government, they are choosing to go to work for those third party organizations.
I thought about that at length. And I would like you to comment on: do you believe that one of the reasons why we have been farming out so much work is because of the difficulty that it's been for people like yourself to bring people into your agency because you haven't had the flexibilities that you need to attract them and keep them and to excite them in your agency?
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VOINOVICH:
One of the things that impressed me as we moved along with the legislationand I think you deal with it and we deal with it in this legislationis the issue of somebody coming in at mid level, in terms of their leave time.
O'KEEFE:
Right.
VOINOVICH:
And a lot of people are not aware of this, but you come to work for the federal government, you get two weeks. If you're here three years, you get three weeks. And if you're here 15 years, you get a month.
So some mid-level person goes back to their spouse and says, "I want to go to work for NASA. I'm excited about the opportunity. I may not make as much as I am in the private sector, but I want to serve my country." And the spouse asks the question, "Well, what kind of leave do you have?"
And then they explain to them. And after that, he may or she may decide not to come because of that situation, because that's become so much of an important fringe benefit, I think, today in our country.
O'KEEFE:
Absolutely.
VOINOVICH:
Those are practical things.
O'KEEFE:
You've hit the nail right on the head. Those are the kinds of maddening things that we do to ourselves, inadvertently, because of the limitations of the way the rules are structured.
I mean, you've hit it right on because sometimes those become the deal breakers. And folks sit back and say, "Gee, do I really want to sign up for this?"
We had a gent who, just last year, began as the director of the Johnson Space Center, who is a retired three-star Marine. And he had gotten out back five years ago, I guess, having had a distinguished career in the Marine Corps all that time. Went to work for a private company.
We recruited him in to be the director. And he got no leave because of the way that the arrangement was structured.
Now thank goodness, we were able to compel him to his public service callingre-callingand he agreed to do so. But it was just something he's had to fiddle with for the past year and work his way through, even though this is a gent who has had more than 30 years of public service time. And yet, the rules wouldn't permit something like that.
You've hit it right on. That's exactly . . .
VOINOVICH:
How about the repayment of loans from students? Do you want to comment on that?
O'KEEFE:
That has some attractiveness to it. And it's certainly one of the elements of the pending legislation that can be yet another tool that would make, again, this "put the deal over the line" kind of condition.
Where, if you have folks with engineering degrees or any scientific degree that would be attractive, they would look at the federal government as an employer of attractive alternative, if the opportunity for forgiveness of student loans were to be incorporated as part of that. That's a very creative approach and one that, again, no one-size-fits-all.
If you've got that full range of tools in the kit bag, there's any number of things you can pull out to adapt to the individual case in what you're looking for, for individual competencies you seek and the capabilities of people that may be applying.
VOINOVICH:
Well, I was shocked when I found out that if a person comes to work for the federal government and the federal government pays off their loans over a period of time, that the payment of those loans is a taxable item for the person who works for the federal government. But if they go to work for a private sector person, it's not taxable.
A little quirk in the law, but again, one I think that needs to be taken care of.
O'KEEFE:
Yes, sir.
VOINOVICH:
One of the areas that's been outstanding now for 13 yearsand I addressed it in my opening statementis the issue of contract management as a high risk item. Thirteen years -- 13 yearsthat's been on that high risk area.
I'd like to know: what are you doing about that issue so that maybe a year from now, David Walker can look at what you're doing and say it's no longer high risk?
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VOINOVICH:
Good. I have visited the facility there in Florida on a couple of occasions. And I had a very, very good tour when STS- 70 went up, I think it was in '95 -- our Ohio crew.
And I'll never forget it because one of the astronauts was a graduate of Ohio State University. And she made it so that the patch that they used was an Ohio State block "O," which she claims that NASA didn't know about, but they'd figured it out.
But I was impressed with what I saw. But the thought came to me after the tragedy, I know that we were going through and they were showing us how they were repairing the tiles. After the shuttle comes back, they've got a lot of tile work that needs to be done.
And the thought occurred to me: do the people that repair those tiles, once the shuttle has come back, are they on your payroll? Or is that farmed out to somebody else?
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VOINOVICH:
Do you believe that you've got the people on board to guarantee that the contractors that you've hiredpeopleare the quality that you want and they're doing the job that you want? I mean, so often, in my experience, I'll never forget when I was county auditor, we farmed out our appraising business. And we had some real problemsin fact, scandals.
And when I became auditor, I brought on a small staff of individuals whose main jobthey were highly competent people who managed the work to make sure that we were getting what the contractor said he was going to do, in terms of quality, the people they hired and surveyed what they were doing when they went out on the job. And then they reviewed the work that came back.
Do you feel that you, at this stage of the game, have enough of those people on board that can make sure that we're getting what we're supposed to be getting from these contractors?
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VOINOVICH:
Before they go. Well, I would be really interested to have someone in your shop do a survey of, over the last several years, of what has been contracted out and, you know, the decision why to contract it out rather than leave it within the agency.
Because I have had some complaints from some folks in Cleveland at NASA, that they believe that too much of the work that they have had there is being farmed out to third parties.
O'KEEFE:
Yes, sir. We'll certainly . . .
VOINOVICH:
I guess I'm saying to you that if the word gets out around the country that you may go to work, but the work's going to be farmed out, why bother to go to work for NASA? Why not find a contractor that you probably think will be around for awhile and having to go to work for them and not bother with NASA? And you may be competing against yourself in that situation.
So I'd be interested in getting some information back from you on that.
O'KEEFE:
Yes, sir.
VOINOVICH:
I'm familiar with the legislation, the things that you're promoting. I can assure you that we'll be getting the bill introduced. I'll be trying to get as many co-sponsors as I can for it. I've been working with the House to try and make sure that they will be willing to move this ahead of some of the other legislation.
We do know we have a human capital problem throughout the federal government. We saw part of it with the amendments to the Homeland Security Act.
There's a lot more that needs to be done. The Defense Department is going to be coming in and asking for some more flexibilities. But I think that your situation commands high priority from us. And we ought to move it forward.
O'KEEFE:
I'm grateful to you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
VOINOVICH:
Senator Carper is here. Senator, have you had a chance to vote yet?
CARPER:
I have not.
VOINOVICH:
Oh, you haven't?
CARPER:
I thought we might vote together.
(LAUGHTER)
VOINOVICH:
Well, I haven't any further comments. Senator Carper, would you like to ask the administrator a question or two before we go to vote together?
CARPER:
Will the hearing adjourn when we go to vote? Is that correct?
VOINOVICH:
Yes, it will be. Unless you want to come back.
CARPER:
Let me just say to Mr. O'Keefe, thank you for being here. And thank you for your stewardship. We know it's been a tough, tough time for you and for the team that you lead.
My staff has been here. I'm sorry that I couldn't be here earlier. And as we walk over the floor, I'll be chatting with our chairman to get the gist of what transpired here.
But I just want you to know that you and the NASA family have been in our thoughts and certainly in our prayers.
O'KEEFE:
Thank you, senator. You're most kind. Appreciate it. A pleasure to see you too, sir.
VOINOVICH:
Before I adjourn the hearing, I want to again thank you for being here today, along with your team. And I would like to indicate that the record is going to remain open for statements that some of my colleagues want to be introduced into the record and also to give them an opportunity to raise questions that will be submitted to you.
Again, thanks very much. Our meeting is adjourned.