MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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Let's start with the first Republican senator to vote for health care reform, Senator Olympia Snowe of Maine. Senator Snowe, thank you so much for voting-for-not for voting for the bill, but for coming on the program. But a lot of people are probably thanking you for voting for the bill, as well.

Let me ask you, who's not thanking you? What's it feel like to be Senator Snowe from Maine today?

SEN. OLYMPIA SNOWE (R-ME), FINANCE COMMITTEE: Well, you know, you hear all kinds of responses, but it's been very positive and encouraging because people want us to work together to solve the public's problems, and it's most notably, of course, is addressing health care reform. So I think from that standpoint, people want to see the system working in Washington. And that's, after all, what it's all about, is building the bipartisan bridges that are so essential to accomplishing that.

MATTHEWS: Well, I was lucky to work for the great senator Edmund Muskie for three years on the Senate Budget Committee staff, and I always looked up to him as someone who could be bipartisan. He and Henry Bellman (ph), the ranking Republican on that committee, were able to forge a bipartisan budget-it's hard to believe these days-every year.

Let me ask you, back home, is this a good thing for you?

SNOWE: You know, I think it is. I mean, I think people want us to reform the health care system, but they're concerned about how we go about it. And I think that's the point, Chris. We have to work in a methodical, practical way, not with arbitrary deadlines, in sorting through these issues. As you know, this is highly complex. It's costly. Given the context of the times in which we find ourselves, people are apprehensive and concerned about whether or not Congress will give this the right amount of attention and forethought to do it right.

So I think that's where the skepticism comes on the part of the public. It's certainly true in Maine. They want us to do something. They just want to make sure that we can get this right and that we don't create unintended and perverse consequences as we go through the overhaul process and what it means to them.

So we've really got to give it the time, and that's what I'm concerned about, is that we won't take-we won't have the patience and the perseverance to examine the issues and what works and doesn't work. And that's why I commend Chairman Baucus, frankly, for, you know, spending the time over the four months to convene the group of six. Even though we didn't reach an agreement...

MATTHEWS: Right.

SNOWE: ... it gave us the opportunity to sort through all of these issues in a deliberative and methodical fashion.

MATTHEWS: What is the deal breaker down the road you foresee? Is there something that might come out of that meeting among Senator Reid, Senator Dodd, Senator Baucus and Rahm Emanuel, the chief of staff to President Obama, that might cause you to have to change your vote on the floor?

SNOWE: Well, you know, there-you know, there are obviously several things. Overall, it would be whether or not they add dramatically to the cost. Secondly, of course, is the public option. I think there are other ways of accomplishing that goal short of creating a government program at the outset that raises a lot of concerns about whether or not government will be running health care, making medical decisions, doing it efficiently and effectively or more costly. So there are a number of issues in that regard with respect to that approach.

Secondly, adding to the cost, making sure we have affordability. These are some of the-are going to be the primary issues. And finally, we have to know the final cost before we begin the debate on the floor of the Senate on the motion to proceed, that we have a final score from the Congressional Budget Office so we know exactly the expanse of this bill and how much it will cost as we begin this debate.

MATTHEWS: What do you see as the bridge between the Baucus bill that you supported yesterday, that is going to be probably the basis for the Senate bill, and what seems to be coming out of those three House committees, the Henry Waxman committee, of course, the Ways and Means Committee and the other committee? What do you see as the basis of compromise between the two houses?

SNOWE: Well, I think that, hopefully, that they would take the Senate Finance Committee's basis for, you know, addressing the costs within the health care system, not going outside health care to raise taxes, for example, having a very expansive approach. You know, I have recommended the trigger as a bridge to-you know, a safety net approach for a public option similar to what we did in the prescription drug program, and in fact, was never triggered because...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

SNOWE: ... there were so many competitive choices. And the same could be true in this instance, frankly. But I think it'd be less ambitious than what exactly has transpired in the House that's raised so many concerns, and frankly, in some ways sidetracked this debate during the course of the summer in not coming up on the part, I think-you know, between the president and the Democratic majority, a coherent approach, with one approach, essentially, with a framework that would create a design for the system, rather than having multiple approaches...

MATTHEWS: Right.

SNOWE: ... that created a lot of confusion on the part of the public.

MATTHEWS: Well, I just heard you say something that sounds like a deal breaker. If the House version, which contains the notion of taxing the very rich to pay for health care-in other words, going, as you put it, outside the health care situation, the health care system to simply raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for a health care system, you consider that a deal breaker?

SNOWE: Well, that's-yes, that would be problematic for me because I don't think that we should do that at this point in time, given the nature of the economy. And we should maintain budget neutrality within the health care system in finding the offsets in which to accomplish that goal. Yes, I would find that very difficult to support. In fact, I've indicated I could not support taking that type of approach. And that's what we adhered to in the group of six on a bipartisan basis.

MATTHEWS: What caused the loss of the other Republicans? I've always been hopeful, or was for a long time, that Mike Enzi would be among those who supported a bipartisan measure, from Wyoming. Can you guess as to why he went from being a-well, he's a CPA. He's an accountant. He knows the numbers. He knows how to crunch them-why he went off? Because I was hopeful he would be on this team.

SNOWE: I think both Senator Enzi and Senator Grassley are serious legislators and contributed mightily to this endeavor that became the basis for the mark-up in the Senate Finance Committee yesterday. I believe they needed, you know, more time to work through these issues and making decisions and a lot more information at that point. And obviously, there were still differences, and we just didn't have the time to work them through, regrettably.

But they were very serious. They made very serious contributions, were there all the time. No one ever missed any meetings or conference calls...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

SNOWE: ... and we all made a collective commitment to this effort. So a lot of what was, you know, worked into this program was a large part of their efforts, as well, even though they couldn't support this bill and some of the things that were in it. And like myself, I couldn't-you know, I didn't support some of these provisions, but I also felt it was important to have the process move forward because I think that's what the American people want. That's what my constituents want. They want us to give it the time to make the process work. And so I think we have an obligation to fulfill in that regard.

MATTHEWS: Can you see any other-we're going to speak with Senator Collins, your colleague from Maine, later and let her speak, obviously, for herself. We're waiting to hear very much from her on this. But are there any other senators outside of Maine in the Republican caucus that might come aboard between now and when this bill comes for a final?

SNOWE: Well, Chris, it's hard to say. I think it all depends on people's, you know, disposition and whether or not they want to support a health care reform bill of this magnitude.

MATTHEWS: I see.

SNOWE: I think it also would be predicated on the types of changes that are made on the floor of the Senate. You know the dynamic can change from day to day, and you just never know. All of a sudden, it could be a catalyst, you know, through the amendment process to bring together and build greater consensus. That's what I'm hopeful for, and certainly, through the Democratic centrists, as well, that I know will play a key role in this debate. So that might invite stronger and broader support in-you know, in the final analysis. Time will tell, obviously.

MATTHEWS: Well, I'm looking at Voinovich in that regard. But let me ask you the last question, the tricky partisan question, the leadership question. Can you tell us, if it happened, if it did happen, whether any one of the leadership, from Senator McConnell on down, that you might be punished in any way for taking this vote?

SNOWE: No. They have never indicated that to me, and I've had very constructive and positive conversations with, you know, Leader McConnell and others. And I-you know, I've never been threatened. I obviously know that they would have preferred that I voted otherwise, but I have no reason to believe, you know-you know, the rumors that have been prevailing with respect to that.

MATTHEWS: Well...

SNOWE: I obviously have to focus on what's right. You know, I don't get up every day worrying about the perks of the office. It's not what drives me or compels me to do my job. I like focusing on the issues and trying to solve problems. That-that's the essence of my obligation, so I don't worry about everything else that happens.

MATTHEWS: Well, you might be getting one of these Profiles in Courage awards from the Kennedy organization up at Harvard-we'll see-whether you want one or not. Thank you very much, Senator Olympia Snowe...

SNOWE: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: ... who's out there voting for health care.

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