NBC Meet the Press - Transcript

NBC News Transcripts

SHOW: Meet the Press (10:00 AM ET) - NBC

HEADLINE: Sandy Berger, Joe Lieberman and John Warner discuss Iraq

BODY:
MS. MITCHELL: But first, we are joined by former national security adviser Sandy Berger, Senator John Warner and Senator Joe Lieberman. Welcome, all. Senator Lieberman, you are just back from Iraq.

SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN, (D-CT): Yes

MS. MITCHELL: You met with John Negroponte and other officials while you were in Baghdad. Tell us what is the situation? What were your impressions?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: My first impression both in Baghdad in visiting our forces in Qatar and in Kuwait is a pride and gratitude for the strength and smarts and lethality and agility and patriotism of the American military. There's been no better military in the history of the world. They defeated Saddam Hussein. He's on trial. They're now working with the Iraqis to figure out how to defeat these insurgents.

And I'd say the attitude is optimistic. I had the opportunity to meet with the new Iraqi minister of defense and his leading generals. They are patriots. They want to assume more and more of the policing and the fight against the terrorists and the insurgents. So there's a lot of hope about Iraq today. No one particularly in our military has any illusions. There are going to be some tough days ahead. But we've come a long way in the cause of national security-ours-and the freedom of the Iraqi people. And on this Fourth of July, we've got a lot to be proud of and to celebrate.

MS. MITCHELL: Yet, despite all of that, when we ask the American public in our new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll whether the situation is under control, by 58 to 34 percent, they think it is not under control. Senator Warner, why is that?

SEN. JOHN WARNER, (R-VA): No one ever said it was under control. I think the president, General Abizaid and all have said it was going to be a tough haul. Now, when we turned over the sovereignty, it's interesting the last 48 hours have been relatively quiet.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Yeah.

SEN. WARNER: And you'll note the loss of life, the frightful loss of life of coalition forces, particularly U.S. soldiers, and wounded, is slowly tapering off. The decision as to how quickly we can rely on the Iraqis will come when-the first trained Iraqi forces. Now, there have been isolated incidents. But those under General Portrayis, who was sent over there specifically for that job, when they go in into harm's way, will they, in fact, utilize that training and the best equipment we can give them and take on the insurgents just as our brave soldiers have done in the past?

MS. MITCHELL: Of course, they've tail and run and in many instances...

SEN. WARNER: Yeah, in some instances.

MS. MITCHELL: ...up until now. Now, General Portrayis has just arrived...

SEN. WARNER: That's correct, yes.

MS. MITCHELL: ...and he's got a great track record.

SEN. WARNER: And they've got sovereignty and they've got strong leadership as my colleague over here mentioned. Just a few weeks ago, the president, the new president was in the Senate meeting with a group of us. They are highly respected and the polls show that the Iraqi people support this new interim government. But the rubber hits the road when those first trained forces take on the responsibilities that have been bravely discharged to date by the coalition forces.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: And can I add a word to what John said, a very brief word...

MS. MITCHELL: You bet.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: ...about the polling on Iraqi opinion? The fascinating and hopeful point we've at is that the Iraqi people are more optimistic about their future than the American people seem to be about the future of Iraq. In fact, the Iraqi administration enjoys more support today, the new administration, from the Iraqi people than the Bush administration seems to enjoy from the American people, so the more important numbers are Iraqi public opinion, and that's...

MS. MITCHELL: But they've got a long way to go...

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Sure, they do.

MS. MITCHELL: ...don't they, gentlemen, in order to establish enough control on the grounds so that they can actually hold elections. Mr. Berger, when you testified in April, you suggested that sovereignty could be-the handover could be a prescription for chaos and that you thought it very unlikely that they would have something in place that could govern effectively by July 1. It's now July Fourth. Do you think that this new interim government can be effective in establishing control?

MR. SANDY BERGER: Well, I'm pleased to see the sovereignty handed over to Iraqis. But sovereignty without capability is a somewhat hollow concept. I think we were a long way from success and a long way from turning the corner in Iraq. Security situation remains very precarious. We've trained only about 10 percent of the Iraqi army we need to shift policing functions over to. On the reconstruction side, we discovered we spent about 2 percent of the $18 billion the Congress-that these two senators and their colleagues appropriated back in October. And in terms of burden sharing, we're still bearing 90 percent of the cost, 90 percent of the risk, 90 percent of the casualties. And I think that we're going to have-those things are going to have to change for the American people to maintain the kind of long-haul support that this is going to take.

MS. MITCHELL: In fact, let's break that down for second. Senator Lieberman, that 2 percent breaks down, apparently, to fewer than 140 projects out of 2,300 reconstruction projects. How do you explain the failure to get more done on the ground?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: I can't explain how that happened. I mean, we quite generously appropriated that $18 billion. It's stunning to see that so little of it has been spent. I think it is important to say, in fairness, that the Coalition Provisional Authority, the American-international forces, have spent almost $20 billion of Iraqi oil money in the reconstruction of Iraq. And a lot of good things have happened. The hospitals are all open. Most of the schools are open. The electricity is more available. The water is more available. But there's a lot more to do. My chairman, John Warner, I'm sure-on the Armed Services Committee-is going to be asking questions, asking people like Jerry Bremer to come before the committee...

SEN. WARNER: Yeah. We...

SEN. LIEBERMAN: ...to testify about this.

SEN. WARNER: On Friday, we issued an invitation to Jerry Bremer to come up when I first read through the GAO report...

MS. MITCHELL: When you say "invitation" it sounds like it's a little...

SEN. WARNER: Well, he'd just gotten back.

MS. MITCHELL: ...more compelling than that.

SEN. WARNER: Let him unpack his bags.

MR. BERGER: An offer he couldn't refuse.

MS. MITCHELL: Exactly.

SEN. WARNER: But it's-yeah, an offer he couldn't refuse. But our committee will be looking into this. Let Bremer give his side of the story. But on the dollar value, very small has been, as they say, expended. But that's the check in hand. There's another $5 billion in the pipeline which is actively working to meet the goal set down.

MS. MITCHELL: It's still not $18.4 billion. It's still a long way from...

SEN. WARNER: No, but you don't want to take the taxpayers' money and throw it away. The contracts had to be competed.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Right.

SEN. WARNER: There was a deterioration in the security system, which scared a lot of contractors off. I think they've been struggling with a tough job. Let's give them a chance to tell the story before we just stamp it...

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Yes. but...

SEN. WARNER: ...not well done.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Excuse me, John. Let's also explain very briefly why this is important. And the most important thing is to maintain security in Iraq. But second is to give people a better life. Because if more people have jobs, if more people get electricity, then they're going to feel optimistic about the future and be committed to this new government. And they're going to carry out these elections in a way...

MS. MITCHELL: Well...

SEN. LIEBERMAN: ...that will get them on the road to self-government, which will be revolutionary in the Arab world. It could be a real model for how to deal with...

MS. MITCHELL: The other piece of this, of course, is the burden that Americans are carrying. Now, Senator Warner, you're chairman of Armed Services.

SEN. WARNER: Yes.

MS. MITCHELL: And only this week, we were told that there's going to be an involuntary call-up of 5,600 troops. How do you explain that?

SEN. WARNER: Well...

MS. MITCHELL: Does that mean we did not factor in enough troops in the beginning? Have we not planned this war properly? Has the Pentagon made mistakes? And should they have listened to General Shinseki and others in the Army...

SEN. WARNER: Well...

MS. MITCHELL: ...who were saying we needed more on the ground?

SEN. WARNER: Let's start with General Shinseki, because I was in the hearing room conducting a hearing when he answered that question, Joe. I think you were in the hearing. He was asked three times, and finally, he just sorted of seized on this figure. You know, I'd like right here and now to invite General Shinseki to tell where the staffing existed to come up with that figure. I cannot find it anywhere in the Joint Chiefs. I cannot find it in the Department of Army. How did he make that estimate.

MS. MITCHELL: Well...

SEN. WARNER: Now, back to the people that were called up, they were individuals called up to plug some gaps that the Army now has in specialized training. And the-they're part of the Reserve. Their contracts said that they were available to be called up. They fully knew it. So...

MS. MITCHELL: But-no, but none of them expected it. Mr. Berger, is this...

SEN. WARNER: Oh, yes, they could have expected it.

MR. BERGER: No...

MS. MITCHELL: Is this a back-door draft?

MR. BERGER: I think in a manner of speaking, these people have left the Army and they're being involuntarily now called back. And I do think it reflects miscalculation at the outset. You know, in the Balkans, we had one peacekeeper for every six people. We have one peacekeeper for every 20 people in Iraq. And Shinseki's number didn't come out of thin air. Almost every military person that I have talked to said, "We may not have needed a larger force to win the war, but we certainly needed a larger force to win the peace. We didn't have the overwhelming numbers in Iraq in the beginning to stop the looting, to establish order and to establish the fact that we were the force that had to be dealt with."

MS. MITCHELL: Well, let me show you what General Barry McCaffrey said about this very factor.

(Videotape, June 30, 2004):

GEN. BARRY McCAFFREY (U.S. Army-Ret.): We have essentially pushed the U.S. Army, and to some extent, the Marine Corps beyond the breaking point. This is induced military service.

There's no question in my mind that the current deployment rates to Afghanistan, Iraq, South Korea and elsewhere will break the U.S. Army in the coming two or three years.

(End videotape)

MS. MITCHELL: Senator Warner, will we reach a point where we have to reinstate the draft?

SEN. WARNER: The answer is no, but Barry McCaffrey, we all know him and we respect him. And he has taken this position, but I can assure you that we have had the calculus in terms of the total forces that the military wanted. Even though the civilians controlled, it was the military's decisions. And I'd like to ask General McCaffrey was not the fact that Turkey prevented the 4th Division from coming into the north and going into those areas where so much insurrection now, had that been gone to plan as General Franks had planned it, we might not have the problem we are seeing today.

But on the draft, I was in the Pentagon with secretary of the Navy when we abolished the draft. And I can tell you the all-volunteer forces worked. We cannot bring back a draft now and make some young men and women go into uniform and not bring in a whole lot of others to do different tasks and then suddenly you've got one of the most enormously expensive programs where we're giving G.I. Bill to military people and those who are brought in to perform other tasks. You just can't go out equitably and grab 5 percent of the young people and force them into uniform without making all the young people begin to do something comparable.

MS. MITCHELL: Well, let's talk for a minute about the handover and whether it has made us safer there, whether it's made our soldiers safer. We've got a situation where the rebellious cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is saying that they should not support the regime. He's now reversed himself on that. The insurgents are on the rise. Look at how Americans responded in our NBC News poll. Asked whether invading Iraq in the first place increased or decreased the threat of terror, a majority, 51 percent, said it did. Only 14 percent feel that we are safer as a result of the war. Joe Lieberman.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Well, here again, Iraqi opinion is much more positive about what we did for them than American opinion is.

MS. MITCHELL: Well, we have to worry about American opinion.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: We have to worry about American opinion for a couple of reasons. The first is there's no way that these insurgents are going to defeat the American military and our Iraqi and international allies. We're not going to lose this militarily.

MS. MITCHELL: But at what cost, Senator?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: The danger is that the terrorists and insurgents can win politically by dividing the American people and, of course, by dividing people in Iraq. Today, I find the Iraqi people to be extremely optimistic, our troops to be very proud of what they're doing. Of course, they want to come home. None of them are whining. So I think if the American people focus on what's happening there, this battle in Iraq is the main battleground in our war against terrorism. This is the test of a generation. Can we stop radical Islamic jihadism which wants to destroy everything that's not like itself from growing and growing? And in Iraq we have the ability to show a great Arab nation a different way to a better life. And that's what's happening on the ground.

MS. MITCHELL: I guess the question is: Can you do this without the consensus of the American people? And if the American people feel that you are failing that test, how do you proceed with foreign policy?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: That's the great danger and the great challenge to our leadership and why I think it's so important, notwithstanding all the dissent about the war in the past, that we go forward together. There has to be unity in America to finish the job. I was very encouraged by an op-ed piece by Senator Kerry in The Washington Post today that says quite clearly he's committed to successfully finishing our mission in Iraq. The Democratic platform will say the same thing. So I think we're building the entity here. I just want the American people to take an open-eyed look about all the progress we're making in Iraq and support our troops and our purposes and principles over there.

MS. MITCHELL: Well, now we have the new Iraqi prime minister, Ayad Allawi, saying that he would grant amnesty to the insurgents, including, al-Sadr, if they put down their weapons. Senator Warner, is that good idea?

SEN. WARNER: I think we've got to support those types of decisions of this new Iraqi government. Give them a chance. It sort of strikes us as not correct since some of those he's offering it to have been engaged in the insurgency that might have brought about death or harm to our forces. But give him a chance.

But back to Kerry's article. He once again comes down that NATO is the solution. Now, you and I know that NATO is rapidly becoming a hollow force. It cannot meet its commitments in Afghanistan. And then you see what went on in Istanbul when the president, I think quite properly, wanted to support the prime minister's request. First thing up on the net is France saying "Oh, no. We're not going to train them in-country."

MS. MITCHELL: What about that, Mr. Berger? If John Kerry's been saying that, you've advised John Kerry.

MR. BERGER: Well, in many ways, let me pull a couple strands here together. We're in a race between the patience of the American people and the achievement of stability in Iraq. If we lose the patience of the American people we're not going to be able to sustain this engagement, and I think all three of us believe it's important that we succeed. Part of that is whether we can share the burden, and we now have a new Iraqi government, more or less legitimate Iraqi government, and we have to go-the president needs to go in an unrelenting way to our allies, both in the region and in Europe, and say "We're not asking you to fall behind the American Army any more. We are asking you to fall behind the new Iraqi government." And I think we've done a very poor job of sharing the burden, of sharing the risks. And I think if we don't get more partners, we're going to lose the race between the patience of the American people...

MS. MITCHELL: Well...

MR. BERGER: ...and the stability of Iraq on the ground.

MS. MITCHELL: ...speaking of partners, according to The New York Times lead story today, the United States, over the objection of some in the Pentagon, released five Saudis with some suspected ties to al-Qaeda training camps from Guantanamo in exchange, apparently, in a deal for the release of five Britons from Saudi Arabia that Tony Blair wanted back. Senator Warner, what's going on there?

SEN. WARNER: I read the same story early this morning, and I'll always be honest with you. I don't have any facts to explain it. But...

MS. MITCHELL: You're on both armed-you're the chairman of Armed Services...

SEN. WARNER: I realize that.

MS. MITCHELL: ...and on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

SEN. WARNER: But you know, it's the Fourth of July weekend. I talked to the Pentagon this morning. I was briefed this morning at 7:00 on all of the developments.

MS. MITCHELL: In other words, the committees had not been briefed when this took place last summer.

SEN. WARNER: So far as I know we had no information whatsoever, and that...

MS. MITCHELL: Are you going to try to find out about it?

SEN. WARNER: Well, of course we will.

MS. MITCHELL: Also I wanted to ask you about criticisms from within your own party. Senator Hagel has been critical. What about those within your own party who feel that the administration is not strong enough in the war on terror and that the invasion of Iraq and the way the occupation has worked has actually gone against success in the war on terror?

SEN. WARNER: Well, Hagel is a good friend of all of ours, and I can't begin to defend his position. I don't recall his taking such an extreme stance. I think he's a fairly constructive critic now and then. But can anyone at this table say we're not better off with Saddam Hussein facing justice by his own people? Are we not better off that the killings and the murders and the perpetration of all of the horror that he projected beyond his borders, is not the region better off? We'll have a day to go back and argue whether we should have done this or that. But now we're where we are and we better begin to pull together and move on and try and get a security situation such that the Iraqis can assume it and bring our troops home.

MR. BERGER: Part of playing...

MS. MITCHELL: But the fact that Saddam Hussein is on trial, I mean, Saddam Hussein has appeared in court. Is that going to inspire more insurgency because of the defiance that he showed in court? Or will the very fact that he's on trial now help restore credibility to the government?

MR. BERGER: I suspect the fact that he's on trial is a good thing in terms of Iraqis. I think they see him even with his defiance and his newly trimmed beard as a man in the dock. It's going to take a little while for them to get used to it, but I think it's a positive thing. I think it's a positive thing that he's being tried by Iraqis. But even here there's the irony, Andrea, that we have shifted authority but we haven't shifted capacity. So he's under the legal authority of the Iraqis but he still is under the physical custody of the Americans because the fact of the matter is we are there for the long haul. We are still going to be doing the heavy lifting, and we've got to get some others in there with us.

MS. MITCHELL: Well, let's take a look also at the American support for this. When we looked at our NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, again, as to whether or not all this was worth it, a majority, 51 percent, feel that removing Saddam Hussein was not worth the casualties and the billions that we spent.

So, Joe Lieberman, have we lost the American people?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: We're in danger of losing too many of them. I mean, here's where we are now. Our military is performing brilliantly, courageously and with a real sense of purpose. They know the importance of what they're doing. The Iraqis now have their own government, a very balanced representative, not elected, but a lot of credibility among the Iraqi people. The country is getting up and running, and I think the real challenge to us who are in positions of leadership in America on a bipartisan basis is to make the case to the American people about why it is important to pull together and win this post-Saddam war in Iraq. And why if we do and when we do, our children and our grandchildren are going to live a lot safer lives than otherwise. So I don't want to go through another circumstance where division at home deprives America and the world of a victory over terrorists who hate us more than they love life.

MS. MITCHELL: Well...

SEN. LIEBERMAN: These are the very same people who attacked us on September 11.

MS. MITCHELL: Senator, we are in the middle of one of the most partisan election campaigns that any of us has seen or at least in recent memory. This is Dick Cheney in New Orleans on D-Day suggesting that the Clinton administration was to blame for this problem with the war on terrorism. Dick Cheney.

(Videotape, Thursday):

VICE PRES. DICK CHENEY: This was the situation when President Bush and I came to office, a world where terrorists were emboldened by years of being able to strike us with impunity, where unprecedented new attacks were being planned, where outlaw regimes provided terrorists sanctuary without cost or consequence.

(End videotape)

MR. BERGER: Now, I think...

MS. MITCHELL: Sandy Berger, was it all your fault?

MR. BERGER: No, it was not all our fault, and it does no service to Vice President Cheney to try to politicize the war on terrorism. The fact is during the Clinton administration, the war on terrorism had the highest priority. We doubled the money for terrorists, we stopped terrorist plots, we tried to kill bin Laden, across a range of things. If anything, the ball was dropped after we left. So I think, you know, this is not the way to unite the country. And quite honestly, it seems to me in the spirit of Senator Lieberman's talking about, if we want the country united behind a very, very difficult effort in Iraq, that's not the way to do it.

MS. MITCHELL: All right. And before we go, I just want to ask you, Joe Lieberman, four years ago, you were in the same situation as some poor soul perhaps who John Kerry is about to designate as a running mate. Any advice?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Well, be ready and get to it and enjoy it. It was one of the great honors and opportunities of my life.

MS. MITCHELL: And whom should John Kerry pick?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Clearly, John Kerry has earned the right to make that choice. I'd say to everybody else who's speculating about who it's going to be, only one person knows who it's going to be, and that's John Kerry. I remember the night before I was selected, I got a very authoritative report from a network, not this one, that someone else had been chosen. I woke up the next morning to learn on this network that I had been chosen. So we have some exciting days ahead.

MS. MITCHELL: Can a one-term senator meet the test of being ready to step into the job and be commander in chief, John Edwards?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Of course. I think the three people that we hear talked about most, Congressman Gephardt, Senator Edwards, Governor Vilsack, all would bring strengths to this ticket. And the vision that John Kerry has of a better America here at home and a stronger, more interconnected America in the world.

MS. MITCHELL: All right. Thank you, all, for...

SEN. WARNER: Joe Lieberman is one of the most respected members of the United States Senate.

MS. MITCHELL: Well, I don't think he's up this time, but...

SEN. WARNER: I know. But he's a good one.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Thanks, John.