MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript

Interview

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MS. MADDOW: In the Afghanistan war, there was a huge surprise today as Defense Secretary Bob Gates announced that he has asked for the resignation of the top commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan. He's General David McKiernan, and he has been there less than a year. McKiernan is to be replaced by Lieutenant General Stanley McChrystal, who has been head of Special Forces in Iraq and who headed up the Joint Chiefs of Staff Afghanistan policy review. Again, the replacement of the top general came as quite a surprise today. No one is quite sure what it means.

Here to help us sort some of this out is New York Congressman Eric Massa. He retired as a Navy commander after 24 years of service, including serving as special assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO during the war in Bosnia. He currently serves on the House Armed Services Committee.

Congressman Massa, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

REP. MASSA: Good evening, Rachel. It's good to be here with you on such a serious topic.

MS. MADDOW: Indeed. Thank you.

Were you aware that our top general in Afghanistan was going to be replaced? You were just as surprised as everybody else today?

REP. MASSA: I think we all were. And frankly, it raises a serious question. You know, this is the same secretary of Defense who, less than a year ago, said we can't discuss repealing "Don't ask, don't tell" because that would be too much of a change, and yet here he is firing his on-the-ground general, which I quite frankly think will have one heck of a lot more impact on the morale of the troops, apparently for no reason at all; maybe the first time since World War II, and even before, that a secretary of Defense has publicly fired a four-star commander in the field. It's very concerning to me.

MS. MADDOW: Do you know anything about what might have led to this? There's been some reporting today about dynamics among the senior commander, dynamics among the high-ranking generals that we've got serving in CENTCOM and in other territories. Do we know if there's anything specifically about General McKiernan which made him the wrong man for this job at this time?

REP. MASSA: Nothing specifically, except he was hand-picked for the job. He is a brilliant commander with an incredible combat record that we all respect. But you've got to remember that this comes at a time when, frankly, we're all very concerned about changes of strategy.

When you have Dick Cheney, on one hand, saying that Rush Limbaugh is a better role model than Colin Powell, and then, on the other hand, tacitly completely agreeing with President Obama about the fact that we need boots on the ground in Afghanistan -- although goodness forbid former Vice President Cheney would never praise President Obama for anything -- you get a lot of mixed messages in the media, and this is one of those mixed messages.

So I and, I believe, other members of Congress are very concerned about the fact that this very respected combat general, frankly, was publicly fired for what we believe to be no reason.

MS. MADDOW: General Petraeus says that al Qaeda is no longer based in Afghanistan. Hamid Karzai said the same thing. Informed observers have said the same thing recently. If that's the case, then, do you see what we're doing in Afghanistan right now as a preventive war? And does that mission seem appropriate to you?

REP. MASSA: It causes into question an awful lot of issues. Now, remember, for a long time those of us in Congress, whether we've had military experience or those of us like myself who were privileged to serve in the armed forces, were told we must listen to the generals on the ground, General Petraeus preeminent among them. So if we follow that logic that we must listen to General Petraeus, then we have to call into question the overall efficacy of the strategy that's being laid out, regardless of the president that's laying it out.

So I think there's a lot of work to be done here in justifying to the American people exactly what the strategy moving forward is. And many of us will express our concerns with the vote coming up on the 2009 left-over Bush war supplemental, which a lot of us are questioning, saying, "Wait a minute. Why are we still dealing with supplementals at a time when we already have two budgets laid on the table?" So there's going to be some public debate about this.

MS. MADDOW: Do you think that Afghanistan is a threat to the U.S.?

REP. MASSA: I don't have the intelligence information in front of me that lays that case out, but I do have the senior-most military commander telling us that al Qaeda is no longer stationed in Afghanistan and that Pakistan is now the center of the theater. At the same moment, his on-the-ground general gets fired. So there are some questions here to those of us who have significant military experience.

MS. MADDOW: Congressman Massa, I also have to ask you about this jaw-dropping news today from another theater, that a U.S. soldier killed five other U.S. troops in Iraq today. As someone who is a veteran, someone keenly interested in military affairs now, I just have to ask what your thoughts are about this.

REP. MASSA: This is a terrible tragedy. I heard about it while I was returning to Washington. Frankly, it causes me great heartache for the families and for the soldiers. This is, I think, a case showing very clearly our military is operating on the thin edge of stress, beyond acceptability.

And I plan on offering whatever resources we need to offer to help our military in the field while offering support to get a strategy that gets us out of Iraq. I ran on a provision that we must return our forces from Iraq. I haven't seen enough movement in that direction yet.

MS. MADDOW: Congressman Eric Massa from New York State, on the House Armed Services Committee, thank you so much for your time tonight, sir.

REP. MASSA: Thank you, Rachel. I appreciate you bringing this subject to the forefront.

MS. MADDOW: Absolutely. Thanks.

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