NPR - Weekend All Things Considered transcript

National Public Radio (NPR) May 9, 2004 Sunday

SHOW: Weekend All Things Considered (8:00 PM ET) - NPR

May 9, 2004 Sunday

HEADLINE: Phil Gingrey discusses the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal and Donald Rumsfeld's testimony

ANCHORS: CHERYL CORLEY

BODY:
CHERYL CORLEY, host:

We called Republican Congressman Phil Gingrey of Georgia today to ask about the prison abuse scandal. Congressman Gingrey is a member of the House Armed Services Committee and from one of the president's strongholds. With some on Capitol Hill calling for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, we asked Congressman Gingrey if he was satisfied with Friday's testimony by Secretary Rumsfeld.

Representative PHIL GINGREY (Republican, Georgia): Sure, I was satisfied with it. You know, Friday was a tough day for him. He spent three hours with the Senate and three hours with the House. But I thought he was very forthright, very honest, very contrite. He apologized deeply to the Arab world and to the Iraqi people as well as to the American citizens. There were some questions raised that still need to be maybe more thoroughly answered, but I didn't get the idea that they were trying to cover up anything.

CORLEY: So I assume that you don't think Secretary Rumsfeld should resign?

Rep. GINGREY: I do not. I think it would be a terrible mistake. He's doing a good job now. You know, he accepts all ultimate responsibility, but how can he really know what a midnight shift of soldiers at the lowest rank in the military are doing in a prison in Baghdad? I don't hold him responsible, although he does accept full responsibility. But as far as him resigning, I think it would be a terrible thing to do. And it's just a lot of political pressure that he's receiving now, and hopefully he'll resist that.

CORLEY: Congressman, are there any circumstances in which you think this matter could lead to Secretary Rumsfeld resigning?

Rep. GINGREY: Well, sure. He said as much. I think the secretary stated, 'If I perceive that that was in the best interests of this country, I would resign.' Well, you know, what more can you ask of a man? I think that shows great integrity on his part.

CORLEY: After reading General Taguba's report, Congressman, do you believe the abuse was isolated or widespread?

Rep. GINGREY: Well, I don't think it was either. I think the most serious abuse, hopefully, was isolated to this 320th MP Battalion. But as the International Committee of the Red Cross had indicated in their report, there was some evidence of abuse and mistreatment at other detention facilities, whether we're talking about the possibility at Guantanamo or in other prisons in Iraq. The International Red Cross has stated emphatically that our government-or our military were cooperating with them fully in that ongoing investigation. So there was no evidence whatsoever of us to sweep this under the rug. Obviously, obviously, we didn't want these pictures released.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm. Do you plan to ask General Taguba to testify?

Rep. GINGREY: Our chairman on the House side of the Armed Services Committee, Duncan Hunter from California, and the minority leader, Ike Skelton from Missouri, who everybody has tremendous respect for-I'm going to trust their judgment on this. And I think probably we will be hearing from them. And, you know, I think that the members of Congress-they don't want to just see guys and gals with stripes on their shoulders being punished when others with the brass and bars and stars had oversight responsibility. And maybe their lack of supervision and leadership led to an atmosphere where these people down in the ranks on that midnight shift at that one particular prison felt that they could get away with something like that.

CORLEY: Your Republican colleague from Oklahoma, Tom Cole, called this abuse scandal a 'psychological Pearl Harbor in the Arab world.' Do you agree with that at all?

Rep. GINGREY: I think to some extent, but you're talking about psychological Pearl Harbors, 9/11 was a psychological Pearl Harbor in the United States of America. I mean, that's what they did to us. Talking about another psychological blow, how about the killing of those four defense contractors and dragging their bodies through the streets of Fallujah, burning them, torching them and then hanging them from telephone poles for public display? I don't condone any mistreatment of prisoners, but, my God, when you compare it to what's happened to our people, it pales by comparison.

CORLEY: Congressman, how confident are you that the actions that we're taking in Iraq will produce a free and democratic Iraq?

Rep. GINGREY: Cheryl, I hope and pray every night about this. And, you know, it's tough. We're at a time when people get discouraged. But I am so pleased with the leadership, starting with the president and the combatant commanders. I think we're doing a great job in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I truly believe at the end of the day-and I don't know what the end of the day is; I'm not going to put a time certain on it-but I do believe that we're going to bring democracy to the Middle East. And those people, for the first time in maybe forever, will have freedom of press, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. That's my hope and prayer, and I think we're going to accomplish that mission.

CORLEY: Republican Congressman Philip Gingrey of Georgia, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, thank you so much for joining us.

Rep. GINGREY: My pleasure. Thank you.