Hearing of the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties Subcommitee of the House Judiciary Committee - From the Department of Justice to Guantanamo Bay: Administration Lawyers and Administration Interrogation Rules, Part V

Statement

REP. TAMMY BALDWIN (D-WI): Thank you. (Audio feedback.) Goodness. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (Inaudible.)

REP. FRANKS: Something's the matter.

REP. BALDWIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Ashcroft, can you describe for the committee briefly your understanding of the role that the National Security Council and its committees played particularly with regard to authorization of detainee interrogations and discussions regarding concerns that might have been raised with regard to mistreatment of detainees?

MR. ASHCROFT: No. The attorney general of the United States is only occasionally called to meet with the National Security Council -- is not a member of the National Security Council, and so it's -- for me to try to define the National Security Council and its role would be beyond my expertise.

REP. BALDWIN: But the principles committee is, as I understand it, one in which you participated.

MR. ASHCROFT: There were times when I was called to meet with various groups that were part of the National Security Council but in terms of its jurisdiction and what its function is it's not something that I'm prepared to comment on. I would say that they -- I think they called on me when they thought there were matters that related to my responsibilities that could be of assistance to them in their deliberation.

REP. BALDWIN: Well, in particular during your time as an NSC principal when you did attend those meetings or in the years since then in looking back at your NSC principal tenure did you come across any evidence of what you believe may be crimes by government officials in the -- in the headquarters of DOD, DOJ, CIA, State, or the White House? And if so, did you make any referrals for criminal investigation?

MR. ASHCROFT: To the extent that I was involved in meetings of the National Security Council they were classified meetings and I will not comment on what I found, didn't find, or what was said or wasn't said.

REP. BALDWIN: Well, let me then ask you a different question concerning where do you believe the ultimate decision on what interrogation tactics would be approved for use on U.S.-held detainees was made? At the White House? At the Justice Department headquarters? At the FBI headquarters? At the Defense Department headquarters? At the CIA headquarters? Or out in the field?

MR. ASHCROFT: Part of that answer is yes. I think different agencies made different decisions regarding what techniques would be used in different situations, and the purpose for having a -- a generalized understanding that would help people know what could be done legally and not done is the basis for the opinion. I might indicate to you that the opinions that we've been discussing today were very limited in terms of their application. They were opinions relating to the interrogation of al Qaeda detainees outside the United States and as a result they didn't apply to a variety of other detentions in other settings that related to people who were, say, fighting in the war in Iraq.

REP. BALDWIN: Let me follow up on that same line of questions but with regard to a specific detainee, Abu Zubaydah. Where do you believe the ultimate decision on the choice of interrogation tactics for his interrogation was made?

MR. ASHCROFT: I don't know.

REP. BALDWIN: Are you aware of whether our allies -- any of our allies in the war on terror are -- condone or use techniques that the U.S. would define as torture in the course of their interrogations?

MR. ASHCROFT: Let me -- am I aware -- in other words, am I aware that some of our allies might use techniques that -- that would be considered torture?

REP. BALDWIN: Yes. That's the question.

MR. ASHCROFT: I have not witnessed anything that would cause me to have that awareness.

REP. BALDWIN: Okay. And related to that are you aware of whether the U.S. has ever turned over any of its detainees to an ally in the war on terror so that they could take the lead on interrogations of such a detainee?

MR. ASHCROFT: Has -- has the U.S. ever turned over --

REP. BALDWIN: A detainee to one of our allies in the war on terror to let them take the lead on interrogations.

MR. ASHCROFT: I don't know -- I don't -- I don't know -- I couldn't name a person that -- that that would apply to.

REP. BALDWIN: Are you aware of whether it ever has in the course of the war on terror?

MR. ASHCROFT: I can't say.

REP. BALDWIN: Do you know what the U.S. policy is on turning over a detainee so that a -- an ally in the war on terror could --

MR. ASHCROFT: I don't know.

REP. BALDWIN: -- lead the interrogation? (Off mike comments.)

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