Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Assessing the State of Iraqi Corruption
Interview
Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Assessing the State of Iraqi Corruption
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REP. JOHN F. TIERNEY (D-MA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank all of our witnesses here this morning for their testimony and for their consistent help with the committee, and Judge Radhi, particularly, I want to thank you for the courage that you've shown and the integrity of coming forward.
And, Mr. Chairman, just for the record, I don't know -- I had to go in and out of other meetings -- but if nobody's brought it up yet I think that we ought to make a statement that the State Department's attempt to indicate that even broad statements and assessments that anyone might make characterizing the quality of Iraqi governance or corruption and saying that that shouldn't be discussed I think is a little bit bizarre, if nothing else, given the fact that there's $600 billion of United States investment in that country and the importance to the Iraqi people of having those investments come out to reconstruction and safety and security and other things. So this is a very germane issue that we're investigating and talking about here this morning, and important to delve into.
But, Judge Radhi, we've talked about your statement that some $18 billion has been lost as a result of corruption, but if we could take just a minute to talk about corruption at the Ministry of Oil, an area where I understand that you have not yet been able to even have an audit on that basis.
You made a statement, and I'll quote you, "It has been impossible for the Commission on Public Integrity to safely and adequately investigate oil corruption where Sunni and Shi'a militias have control of the metering, transport and distribution of oil." So we're talking about billions and billions of dollars worth of Iraqi oil revenues, basically the lifeblood of the country, and a central obstacle to obtaining any political reconciliation. Are you saying, sir, that even given that importance you've not been able to have audits or investigations into that ministry?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.
) Out of this $18 billion total amount, only half a billion is related to issues pertaining to the Ministry of Oil. With respect to the Ministry of Oil, the inspector general of that ministry had issued a report of three -- that contains three sections. The inspector general of that ministry spoke about trafficking in oil, about the amount of funds of these revenues and about the amount of oil that was involved in this, in addition to the reports by U.S. and British authorities.
REP. TIERNEY: And would --
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) There were two cases about a current and a former minister, and -- that these cases were closed.
REP. TIERNEY: Let me back up a second. The -- so the reports on the oil ministry would have added to that $18 billion or were already incorporated in the $18 billion figure?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) It would have added.
REP. TIERNEY: It would have added?
And Mr. Bowen and Mr. Walker, is it your understanding also that militias are likely in control of a substantial amount of money from the oil industry?
MR. BOWEN: There are a number of sources that report that. Yes, sir.
MR. WALKER: Yeah, there's more information available on a classified basis, Mr. Tierney.
REP. TIERNEY: Thank you, Mr. Walker.
Judge Radhi, in your statement you say, and I quote again, "This has resulted in the Ministry of Oil effectively financing terrorism through these militias." Can you tell us what you mean by that? Are you saying that these oil revenues were given directly to the terrorists?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) Yes, such as in Baiji and the central part of Iraq, there are Sunni militias that control this region, and they take a great share of these revenues, and they use some of the amounts to finance their militias. And the same thing goes to Basra, where the region is under the control of the Shi'as' militias.
REP. TIERNEY: Well, thank you very much.
My time is up.
Mr. Chairman, thank you.
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REP. TIERNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I don't think the American people would sit by idly and quietly if we were having secret discussions about $18 billion worth of taxpayer money going out the door through corruption. And I don't know of any situation where corruption has ever been defeated or diminished with secret meetings, as opposed to shining light on it and bringing it out into the public light and the public coming forward, whether they're Iraqi citizens or American citizens, demanding something be done.
I mean, these hearings are about finding out who's corrupt, how that corruption is playing out, what should be done to stop the corruption, and to the extent our government is, what are we doing about it and how is it going? We're not doing very much when Judge Brennan, the former director of the Office of Accountability over there, says he's -- he -- he's not aware of any coordinated U.S. strategy to fight corruption in Iraq, when James Santelle, who supervises the activities of that OAT organization, and he's the rule of law coordinator for the embassy, told us, "You have a system where the coordination is lacking." And Michael Richards, the executive secretary of the Anti-Corruption Work Group, says basically he'd like to be able to say that they've done quite a bit in this area, but unfortunately they've not.
Vincent Foulk, who's a senior consultant in the Office of Accountability and Transparency, was the primary drafter of two reports issued by the OAT in December of 2006 and another in July of 2007. Those reports assess the anti-corruption efforts of the Iraqi government, something you feel now would be just real high security risk to divulge. According to him, these reports were not classified when they were drafted. They were not classified when they were issued. They were instead marked "Sensitive but Unclassified." Now, both Christopher Griffith, senior advisor to OAT, Judge Arthur Brennan, the former director of OAT, as I've said, confirmed that those reports were not classified when they were issued and they were not classified when they were drawn. Are you aware of those reports?
MR. BUTLER: Mr. Congressman --
REP. TIERNEY: Are you aware of those reports, sir? I've only got five minutes and I really want answers more than talk.
MR. BUTLER: I have in the last couple of weeks become aware --
REP. TIERNEY: Okay.
MR. BUTLER: -- of working documents prepared by OAT.
REP. TIERNEY: Were you aware that those reports were not classified when they were drafted and issued by the Office of Accountability and Transparency?
MR. BUTLER: We only found three weeks ago these were -- these documents, working documents, even existed.
REP. TIERNEY: All right. Then did you become aware that those reports have been widely distributed both within the embassy and with other relevant agencies by e-mail?
MR. BUTLER: They were not widely distributed within the U.S. government.
REP. TIERNEY: You say they were not?
MR. BUTLER: Well, if they would've been, we would've known about it in my office.
REP. TIERNEY: All right. Did you know that they were apparently distributed to others, although maybe not your office, surprisingly so?
MR. BUTLER: I'm unaware of the distribution of these internal working documents of the OAT.
REP. TIERNEY: Interesting. Well, Scott Wynn (sp) is the acting rule of law coordinator for the U.S. Embassy in Iraq, told the committee staff that he was asked to do a classification review of those reports shortly after this committee went and asked for those reports to be given to the committee for this investigation. Mr. Wynn then told the committee he had never even done a classification review before. So why is it that when we ask for these documents Mr. Wynn is suddenly asked to review the documents for classification when he has no experience in that field at all?
MR. BUTLER: I'm reminded of the very first security infraction and almost the last one I had in the foreign service was as a junior officer I wrote a message back to Washington that my superior -- that I marked unclassified, and when it went to my superior he upgraded to confidential. I didn't spot it, tossed it in my wastebasket when I finished with it, and got a -- got a pink slip from the Marine the next day. This is -- this is the responsibility of classification authority. These documents were not properly -- properly classified, and according to the embassy have subsequently been appropriately classified given the sensitive nature of the information contained therein.
REP. TIERNEY: You know, this report -- the one that you thought wasn't circulated -- was first given to Ambassador Saloom and his chief of staff. Five days later it was given to the Anti-Corruption Working Group -- the entire group. And then it was given to the rule of law coordinator and others. So apparently you were out of the loop, but it was distributed broadly within that group on that basis.
MR. BUTLER: Congressman, every person you've mentioned is inside the embassy.
REP. TIERNEY: It also went to the GAO and the special inspector general.
MR. BUTLER: It did -- did not come back to Washington. We were unaware of the existence of that report --
REP. TIERNEY: So that's the key. As long as it doesn't come back to Washington it can be disseminated around the embassy, the GAO and to the SIGIR.
MR. BUTLER: It's my understanding this was an internal draft working document which had not been blessed as an embassy document.
REP. TIERNEY: And you thought it was important not to share it with this committee and to have it -- except as a classified document.
MR. BUTLER: We provided it -- committee staff was able to review it upon us finding out about it. And we provided hard copies shortly thereafter, sir.
REP. TIERNEY: Can you see at all or appreciate at all the fact that this committee and probably the public finds it bizarre that something is retroactively classified on a public hearing about corruption which weighs on the safety of our men and women over there? Testimony today, some $18 billion -- that's without looking at the Oil Ministry, without looking at the Interior Ministry -- of money that, according to testimony today, is going in the hands of militia -- those same militia that are shooting at our troops, and your story is, "Well, we can't talk about that publicly. It's embarrassing to us and it might get the Iraqi government upset when the public knows that they're engaged in it as well."
MR. BUTLER: Congressman, you're -- you phrased that well, the safety of our men and women in the embassy. And those who are working on the anti-corruption (effort ?) deserve the protection of the proper classification of that document.
REP. TIERNEY: What they deserve, sir, is a full investigation so that we understand the depth and breadth of it so that we can do something about it instead of having people say that it's a disorganized department, a system where the coordination is lacking, where there is no awareness on the part of the director of OAT of any coordinated U.S. strategy to fight corruption, and where that money that is being corruptly taken out of circulation is given to militias who are shooting at our people. That's why we're having the hearing, and that's why maybe we'll wake you all up so that you have a coordinated effort at OAT and the working group and start doing something about it, and we'll find out who's involved with it and get it done so that our people aren't being shot with money -- weapons bought from money as a result of corruption.
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