Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Assessing the State of Iraqi Corruption
Interview
Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Assessing the State of Iraqi Corruption
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REP. STEPHEN F. LYNCH (D-MA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I want to thank the chairman and the ranking member for holding this hearing.
I also want to thank Comptroller General Walker and also Inspector General Bowen for your great work on our behalf.
And I also want to thank the judge. I appreciate the risk to yourself, and I offer the prayers of our country for the 31 employees of your ministry that have been killed and also their families.
Judge Radhi, your testimony says that your investigators identified about $18 billion as the estimated cost of corruption in Iraq. I -- there's so much to go on here, I've got to pick just one case so I can ask some questions about it. This is a case involving Ayham al-Samarrai. I hope I have that right. And he was the head or very high in the electricity industry, the Ministry of Electricity, I guess it's called. I want to ask you, do you recall the facts surrounding Ayham al-Samarrai? Just briefly. I'm trying to get the facts on -- you don't need a long explanation. Just basically tell me what he was being investigated for. What were the allegations against Mr. al-Samarrai?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) We had --
REP. LYNCH: How about a leading question? How much money was Mr. al- Samarrai accused of embezzling, stealing?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) It is not embezzlement. It is a waste of public money.
REP. LYNCH: Okay. Corruption involving how much money? Hundreds of millions?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) In each ministry, a particular certain amount of money, and the total across all ministries is $18 billion.
REP. LYNCH: Okay. Now, I understand --
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) And for electricity, $2 billion.
REP. LYNCH: Two billion (dollars). Okay. Mr. al-Samarrai, I understand, was arrested and held in prison inside the Green Zone, but he somehow escaped. Do you know the facts surrounding that?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) I know some of the facts that surround this case, and I know that a U.S. protection company has helped him get away.
REP. LYNCH: Do you know what the name of that -- that U.S. protection agency might've been?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) I believe it's DynCorp.
REP. LYNCH: Okay. Blackwater. Now, with the assistance of Blackwater, do you know where --
REP. WAXMAN: This is -- he said DynCorp.
REP. LYNCH: Oh, DynCorp? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. DynCorp. Thank you. Thank you -- (laughs) -- for that correction.
Okay. So DynCorp, a U.S. contractor, helped this person get out of jail in the Green Zone. Do you know where Mr. al-Samarrai is right now?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) This is not important to me. What matters to me is there is a in absentia -- in absentia order or --
REP. LYNCH: Okay.
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) -- court order against this man, and that is a sentence for three years.
REP. LYNCH: It may not be important to you, but it's important to this committee. Is it your understanding that this gentleman is in Chicago, in the United States, right now?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) Three years sentence awaiting him, and there is 11 other charges against him --
REP. LYNCH: Okay.
MR. AL-RADHI: -- (fielded ?) through the Interpol.
REP. LYNCH: All right. It's my understanding, and I'll offer it for testimony, that our staff did talk to this gentleman. He is in Chicago.
And I'll yield back, Mr. Chairman.
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REP. LYNCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And just to -- I'm going to ask Mr. Bowen. But I've tried to establish that the former Iraqi electricity minister was accused of corruption of potentially hundreds of millions of dollars. He was arrested. He was brought to the Green Zone. I believe it was a DOD facility. We're talking United States military. He was then broken out of that jail or removed from that jail by a U.S. contractor. We have evidence it was DynCorp -- testimony it was DynCorp.
Mr. Bowen, is that your understanding of the facts of this case?
MR. BOWEN: Yes, but with the one additional fact that he was convicted by that Iraqi court and was awaiting sentencing.
REP. LYNCH: Okay.
May I -- is there an investigation ongoing relative to his -- the handling of this case?
MR. BOWEN: I can't comment on our ongoing investigations.
REP. LYNCH: Okay. So if it's an ongoing investigation, it must be ongoing.
Can you -- can you tell me, Mr. Bowen -- and I -- look, I've sort of followed your work in Iraq, and I appreciate it greatly. You're doing -- you're doing tremendous work, and I appreciate it. Can you tell me, is the allegation that this gentleman is in Chicago, is that -- is that correct? Is that your understanding?
MR. BOWEN: That is what I have heard, yes.
REP. LYNCH: Okay. I'll let it go at that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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REP. LYNCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank the witness for coming forward.
Look, I know you said we get high marks for our job. But I'm trying to find evidence of that in the record here. We have an assessment that currently there is no single office that has the authority or responsibility for oversight and to assure that all anti- corruption efforts are focused on a common goal or that efforts are being performed in an efficient manner. We've got evidence here that the Office of Accountability and Transparency has been hampered from the beginning by a lack of support and leadership. The office has only had one permanent director, Judge Brennan, and he -- he lasted a month. I heard he was doing a good job, but, again, he was only there for a month.
Now, I know that the inspector general, Stuart Bowen, had recommended that you appoint a senior leader from the Department of State to run the office, and yet we have evidence that actually by default the acting head over there was actually a paralegal doing administrative work. And so instead of an experienced senior department person, you've got an inexperienced paralegal. Hey, some paralegals are great, but not -- not to run this critical agency.
There's a lot of testimony here that you're not getting high marks, to be honest with you. And then, you know, when we ask you about the level of corruption here, we're getting answers like, "We don't want to talk about any broad statements or assessments to judge the level of corruption in Iraq." And yet we're -- I think we've sent $450 billion over there so far. How -- how does that square with, you know, your constitutional responsibility and ours?
MR. BUTLER: The embassy -- the U.S. government -- has invested heavily in the last couple of years in broad-based anti-corruption efforts.
In the first instance, this is the playing offense side of it, to develop capacities in ministries and more recently through the provincial reconstruction teams to develop capacities at the provincial municipal levels, which are showing very promising early days.
REP. LYNCH: Well, let's talk about that. You tell me. You tell me. You know, you've got this refusal here to testify in any detail about the level of corruption in Iraq that we know is going on. How do you reassure us in Congress, representing the American people? They're looking for more money over there, and yet you won't even tell us about what you have found in terms of the level of -- of corruption and whether things are getting better or worse over there. You won't get into any of the details that the first panel talked about.
I mean, how does that square? I just -- we have a problem here. We have a problem of constitutional dimensions here. Now, I respect the job that you do. We all do. But it appears that you don't have the same respect for the job that Congress must do. We have an oversight responsibility not to sign a blank check, but to find out how progress is being made in terms of the resources that we've committed to this.
MR. BUTLER: Congressman, two things. One, we have provided to the committee all the documents from the embassy that we were able to find related to corruption. And, second, we have made it clear that we are prepared to answer your questions in an appropriate setting. We're prepared to do that at any moment.
REP. LYNCH: Look, I'll leave it at this. This is a matter of transparency. Do you see the irony here? You're saying -- you've actually established a committee on accountability and transparency for the benefit of the Iraqi people. And yet here, when we ask you to -- to exercise the same transparency with respect to your responsibility to the American people, you're claiming that there's a -- there's a level of confidentiality that's required, that we can't actually tell the American people, the American taxpayer, what we're doing with their money. And, you know, that just -- it is just ironic that you're standing there. And I know it's not your decision, sir. It's -- this decision was made at the secretariat level. Let's be frank. And I know you're just here doing your job. But --
MR. BUTLER: Mr. --
REP. LYNCH: -- it is -- it is totally disrespectful to the American people.
MR. BUTLER: Mr. Congressman, I -- the issues and the aspects that are involved in the fight against corruption in Iraq risk people's lives. You heard that from Judge Radhi earlier today, what has happened to him and to his colleagues. It potentially endangers the lives of fellow Americans who are on the ground --
REP. LYNCH: But, sir, if it wasn't for his testimony we would never hear about it, because you've got a gag order on at the State Department. It was his testimony that we're discussing today. But State Department has offered no clear assessment. You haven't really fulfilled your responsibility to the American people, in my opinion.
MR. BUTLER: We are -- we have provided the documents as requested. We've also provided the witnesses, the individuals that have been deposed in the last week. And we're prepared in a classified setting to answer your questions to our best of ability in detail.
REP. LYNCH: Very disappointed.
I yield back.
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