Hearing of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform - Blackwater USA; Private Security Contracting in Iraq & Afghanistan

Interview

Hearing of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform - Blackwater USA; Private Security Contracting in Iraq & Afghanistan

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REP. JOHN SARBANES (D-MD): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually I want to follow up on that line of questioning a little bit more. I think you said that when people violate thee rules in a significant way, they have one decision left to make, which is aisle or window, right, meaning --

MR. PRINCE: Because they're fired. They're out of there.

REP. SARBANES: -- they're on their way out. They have one decision and that's whether to sit on the aisle or sit by the window. And then the other consequence that Mr. Hodes spoke to was the financial penalty that they would experience, but it just seems like a few thousand dollars, particularly against a pretty lucrative contact that they would have had.

And it strikes me that that's -- if that's the only deterrent that's at work in terms of people performing at a high level, that's not much. In other words, you can say, "Let me get in here. Let me make -- let me make a good living here for a moment, and if I screw up, and if I screw up in a terrible way, as this one incident illustrates, then the worst that's going to happen to me is I'm going to have to choose between an aisle seat or a window seat, and maybe give up a bonus and my last paycheck. I mean, that's essentially the consequence that they face. Isn't that right?

MR. PRINCE: I would also add that we endeavor to get their security clearance pulled, cancelled. And once that's done, they'll never work in a clearance capacity for the U.S. government again. It's very, very unlikely.

REP. SARBANES: But you'd agree that it's not -- it doesn't have the same kind of deterrent effect that it would have if they thought that they were going to be subject to prosecution, if there was a clear set of rules in place -- a clear context in which they could be prosecuted -- they could face something akin to a court martial or all the other kinds of measures that can occur if you were in a traditional military setting. You'd agree that that provides an extra level of deterrence.

REP. WESTMORELAND: Mr. Chairman -- Mr. Chairman, I think the witness has already testified that he did everything that his company could to this person and that he is not the prosecutor.

REP. WAXMAN: (Sounds gavel.) I'm sorry you're not acting according to rules.

REP. SARBANES: Well, I'm actually -- I'm headed in the direction --

This is not -- this is not a court case. The gentleman has time and I'm going to restore his time.

And whatever he wants and to say whatever he wants. Some people on this committee have said completely outlandish things and nothing we can do about it. They have their right, including you. You read a whole blasphemous statement about Democrats but nobody objected to that. So the gentleman is going to be recognized for --

REP. SARBANES: In any event, would you agree that that would provide some extra deterrence, some extra reason for people to exercise their conduct in a careful way.

MR. PRINCE: We welcome that level of accountability. Most of our people have already served in the U.S. military or they served in a law enforcement capacity. They're used to that kind of accountability and transparency into what they're doing.

REP. SARBANES: Well, I appreciate your saying that because I --

MR. PRINCE: We're not there -- we're not hiding anything.

REP. SARBANES: I would like to leave aside the question of whether you should be -- Blackwater should be in this space that you're in. I don't know enough about the history of whether providing this sort of proactive service that you do is something that isn't done by the military traditionally, or is. So I'm going to leave that aside. I'm also leaving aside the issue of the cost, which strikes me as exorbitant in terms of what the tax payers are paying here.

You keep calling for, I think, an activity-based cost analysis or assessment which I think we'd be happy to get more information about. I have got to believe there's a less expensive way, even to hire private contractors like yourself. And so I'm really left with the accountability issue as the one that strikes me as front and center here. And as I've listened to your testimony -- in particular, you're saying, with respect to this one person who was drunk and committed this homicide -- I'll characterize it that way. I think you said you'd be happy to see that person prosecuted -- something akin to that. And I'd like to enlist you as an advocate to strengthen whatever the rules -- rules of engagement are, whatever the statues are that are out there. Mr. Braley took us through these various things, and you indicated that you weren't sure whether each of those necessarily reached as far as they could in providing that kind of penalty environment. And I'd like you to speak to whether it'd be a good thing to make sure that it does.

MR. PRINCE: I believe Congressman Price from North Carolina has been pushing to amend some of that language, and we support that fully.

REP. SARBANES: Thank you.

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