National Public Radio Talk of the Nation Transcript

November 12, 2003 Wednesday

HEADLINE: Political career of Dennis Kucinich as he seeks the Democratic presidential nomination

ANCHORS: NEAL CONAN

BODY:
NEAL CONAN, host:

This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

Dennis Kucinich came to national attention as the boy mayor of Cleveland in the 1970s. He now represents Ohio's 10th Congressional District, is the co-chair of the Congressional progressives, and he wants to be the next president of the United States. As part of a series of conversations with presidential hopefuls, Dennis Kucinich joins us to talk about his ideas, his campaign and where he hopes to lead the country.

What do you want to know about this candidate? If you have questions about what he's done, what he's said or what he wants to do, our number here in Washington is (800) 989-8255; that's (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org.

Congressman Kucinich joins us now from the Des Moines bureau of member station WOI in Ames, Iowa.

And it's good to have you back on the program.

Representative DENNIS KUCINICH (Democrat, Ohio; Presidential Candidate): It's so wonderful to be here, and hello from Des Moines.

CONAN: We spoke just last week with the congressman about his proposal to withdraw US troops from Iraq, so we're going to skip that topic today. If you'd like to hear what he had to say on that occasion, you can pull it down from the TALK OF THE NATION page on our Web site at www.npr.org.

But let's begin with the broad question of foreign policy, Dennis Kucinich. As president, how would you keep Americans safe?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, first of all, we have to acknowledge that we have a responsibility to defend our country, but we also have to acknowledge that the direction which the United States has taken in Iraq is counterproductive to meeting the challenge of terrorism. There's only one way to meet the challenge of terrorism in today's society, and that is to work with the world community. And as president I would abandon these policies of pre-emption and unilateralism and work constructively with the world community so that we can work cooperatively to track down terrorists and bring them to justice.

But we need to do more than that. We need to have an affirmative structure for international law through the International Criminal Court, and I intend to have the United States join that. As president, I will sign the Kyoto climate change treaty. I'll also sign the biological weapons convention and the chemical weapons convention, the small arms treaty, the landmine treaty. It's time for the United States to rejoin the world, and I'll take an approach that acts on a vision of a world as interdependent and interconnected, where we can work constructively to create peace.

CONAN: In a speech that you gave on February 17th, 2002, a speech that many credit was really the genesis of your presidential campaign-it was called A Prayer for America-near the end of it you said America stands not in pursuit-you looked forward to an America that stands not in pursuit of an axis of evil, but which is itself at the axis of hope and faith and peace and freedom. Do you believe there is evil? Do you think there are people out there trying to get America?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, Gandhi once said the only evil that's in the world is that which is rattling around in our own hearts. And I think to try to objectify evil and then to develop foreign policies to pursue it is folly. Are there people who have different world views? Yes. We must work in this world to achieve a peaceful coexistence notwithstanding the diversity of views which exist. And for those who are insistent on making it impossible for peaceful coexistence, who want to pursue terror, then the world must cooperate to deal with that. But what we don't want to do is to, as a nation, set ourselves above the community of nations, determine that we alone have the responsibility to enforce peace in the world, that we alone have the responsibility to set out on a unilateral course of action to be able to punish any nation which doesn't comply with our particular world view. And I think that as president, what I can do is to embrace the world community in a cause that mankind that has long sought but it's eluded us and that is the cause to work to make war itself archaic.

You know, we somehow accept, Neal, this inevitability of war and that then becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. My presidency will look at those deep questions and work constructively to create systems and structures internationally which will make it possible for us to create a new era.

CONAN: In fact, you've called for a new federal agency, a Department of Peace. How would that work?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, it's not only about a new Cabinet-level position for a Department of Peace, but it would reflect America taking a different approach in domestic policy as well as international policy. Domestically, a Department of Peace would fund programs through education and working with non-government organizations to look at those challenges to peace which exist in our own homes and in our society; challenges like domestic violence, spousal abuse, child abuse, the matter of violence in our schools, racial violence, violence against gays, all of those things in our own society which suggest that we really need help in dealing with issues of violence.

On an international level, we'd work with the nations of the world in looking at issues of human insecurity, of poverty, famine, drought, all of those things that percolate violence and to create structures which can work to make war not inevitable but, in fact, make peace inevitable. So my vision that I would bring to the presidency is one which would make peace part of a program of sustainability.

CONAN: You've been accused of being a utopian at times. Would you fess up to that?

Rep. KUCINICH: 'You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.' I mean, we have...

CONAN: I think I've heard that line someplace.

Rep. KUCINICH: You've heard that before and so have I. And I will say that we need to be able to have confidence in the authenticity of our dreams. We need to-as human beings, we have an obligation to evolve, and the founders of this country understood that. That's why in the preamble to the Constitution they spoke of creating a more perfect union. And the job of perfectibility is something that is left to us and we are the ones who are responsible for helping to create a new nation every day. And so my presidency will be about putting America on the path of creating a more perfect union for health care, for education, for jobs and for international cooperation.

CONAN: One more question on foreign policy, and that has to do with the knotty issue of North Korea. Now you called for a policy that would bring an end to nuclear weapons worldwide. How do you deal with a situation like North Korea? Negotiations as President Bush is pursuing, or what?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, we have to understand that when the president pronounced an axis of evil and then pursued an attack on one of those nations he named-when he attacked Iraq, it sent a signal to North Korea, 'Look, you're next.' North Korea and its development of nuclear capabilities does represent a nation that is vexing to the world community. We have an obligation to reach out and to bring North Korea back into the community of nations, not to isolate it. And so this plays into what our policy happens to be in Korea itself. It plays out with America's-this administration's new nuclear posture review in building new nuclear weapons. Look, how can we tell any nation of the world that it should abandon its nuclear ambitions if we ourselves are building nuclear weapons and have abandoned an anti-ballistic missile treaty?

So my presidency will be to work with the nations of the world, including North Korea, to get rid of all nuclear ambitions and all nuclear weapons. You know, that was the promise of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, to get rid of all nuclear weapons. And all the non-nuclear nations watch the nuclear nations, and if we keep building nuclear weapons, we're sending a signal that sends escalation all over the world. We need to bring North Korea back into the community of nations. And you know what? We need to help the leader of that nation make sure he can feed his people so that he can maintain his credibility in his own nation.

CONAN: Some people would be saying you'd be propping up one of the worst dictators of the 20th century.

Rep. KUCINICH: Boy, that would be the first time America ever did anything like that. I mean, we have a responsibility to maintain peace in this world. We have no right to be the policeman of the world. And as a matter of fact, we will function best in working cooperatively, and whenever nations feel threatened, we need to address the nature of their insecurity and not just automatically prepare to go to war against them. I mean, this idea about the inevitability of war bespeaks a world view which is compartmentalized. The us vs. them approach always leads to war. And yet, a vision which views the world as interconnected and interdependent-which, by the way, is confirmed by technology and our advancement scientifically-must also be reflected in our diplomacy. And we have not really pursued what Franklin Roosevelt called the science of human relations to the point of where we can put down our swords and beat them into plow shares and turn our spears into pruning hooks.

Instead, what are we doing in this country? We're building more weapons. We're spending more for the Pentagon. We're talking about putting weapons in space. We're building new nuclear bunker busters. They're trying to fund this missile shield which we know doesn't even work. We're going in the wrong direction. My presidency will reverse that direction and create a condition where America can live at peace with the world, still be strong, have the ability to defend ourselves. But the best defense in today's complex world is a president who will work with the nations of the world cooperatively to achieve the security of the United States and the world community.

CONAN: Our phone number is (800) 989-8255; that's (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org. And let's begin with Curt, who's with us from Spooner, Wisconsin.

CURT (Caller): Hi, Dennis.

Rep. KUCINICH: Hi.

CURT: What would you cut our military budget down to? I mean, I understand we're spending approximately $400 billion on war pretty much.

Rep. KUCINICH: We are spending 400 billion. And as the ranking Democrat on a subcommittee that has jurisdiction over national security, and has been a watchdog of the Pentagon budget, I can say with great clarity that this country can afford to cut the Pentagon budget by 15 percent, which would yield $60 billion that could go right into a fund to create universal prekindergarten child care for all of America's children aged three, four and five. I mean, we get to choose our priorities in this country and lately, because of fear, the Pentagon budget keeps getting driven higher and higher. The spending is not productive, and it's leading towards, I think, a society which is forgetting the purpose of government. It is not simply to build a military.

And so as president, I'd take this country in a new direction. We'll protect ourselves. We spend more now than the rest of the nations combined for defense. It's about time that we spend something for health care and education and job creation and housing and all of those other quite legitimate purposes of government.

CONAN: I don't want to get into an addition contest here, but, Congressman, you're lumping in a lot of things to get to a figure of $400 billion.

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, no, I'm not. I mean, that's what the defense authorization budget is.

CONAN: And does that include the 87 billion for Iraq?

Rep. KUCINICH: No, that's separate.

CONAN: That's separate?

Rep. KUCINICH: Yeah, Neal. I mean, you should-you know, may I-that's-the 87 billion for Iraq...

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Rep. KUCINICH: ...was a supplemental appropriation.

CONAN: Now that I'm aware of.

Rep. KUCINICH: So when you keep that in mind, you have $400 billion for the defense bill, which is driven by fear, the 87 billion for the second installment of what will be many installments for the occupation of Iraq, and we are headed in a direction where we have a militarization of our budget. And that, I think, is not in the interest of the American people.

CONAN: OK. Curt, thanks very much for the question.

CURT: I have one more question.

CONAN: If you keep it quick, please.

CURT: Have you ever read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, Mr. Kucinich?

Rep. KUCINICH: No.

CONAN: OK.

CURT: I highly recommend it.

CONAN: OK. Thank you very much. I should say there've been many callers to this program who've recommended it, so thanks for the call, Curt.

Rep. KUCINICH: I just made a note.

CONAN: OK. Switching to-staying on domestic subjects for a minute, you call for universal health care for Americans, and most of the Democratic candidates have platforms that address health care. How is yours different?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, first of all, I cover everyone. I mean, most of the candidates have plans which leave 10 million people out. You know, if you leave anyone out in a family, it makes everyone in the family vulnerable. My plan calls for everyone to be covered. It takes it away from the private sector. Most of the other candidates' proposals leave health care in the control of the insurance companies. I don't do that. I say we have to recognize that insurance companies are in business not to provide health care. That's how they make a profit. My plan is to see that all the health-care dollars in this country-which right now are about $1.4 trillion-go into health care. Not into advertising, marketing, lobbying, not into corporate salaries and executive bonuses and stock options but go right into health care. My plan will put the health-care dollars into every medically necessary procedure, into complementary and alternative medicine, into vision care, dental care, mental health care, long-term health care and a prescription drug benefit.

So we can have the broadest health care, quality health care, access to health care in America. We're paying for it right now. We're not getting it because the insurance companies are controlling health care in America. They keep raising premiums. As you know, Neal, premiums have gone up about 50 percent over the last three, four years; co-pays and deductibles are going up. People who do have insurance are paying more, they're getting less and we also have more people who don't have insurance. So this is a moral concern, and it can't be addressed with tax cuts, it can't be addressed by keeping the insurance companies in charge of health care. It can only be addressed through a comprehensive expansion of Medicare, single-payer universal health care, Medicare for all.

CONAN: When we come back from a short break, we'll continue our conversation with Congressman Dennis Kucinich, who hopes to be the Democratic nominee for president of the United States. (800) 989-8255; (800) 989-TALK.

I'm Neal Conan. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich has been good enough to give us some of his time today to talk about his bid for presidency. He's with us from the Des Moines bureau of member station WOI in Ames, Iowa. Of course, you're invited to join the discussion. If you'd like to call us, our number is (800) 989-8255; that's (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org.

And let's get right to another telephone call and bring in-this is Jennifer. And Jennifer's with us from Syracuse, New York.

JENNIFER (Caller): Hello.

CONAN: Hi. You're on the air, Jennifer. Go ahead.

JENNIFER: My question was how you feel about the war on drugs. Should we divert money from drug users to drug education?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, we certainly should be stressing drug education, and I believe that there are areas where we have to look at decriminalization and we have to be emphasizing rehabilitation as opposed to incarceration. There's a lot of hypocrisy about law enforcement in this country when it comes to drugs and as president, I intend to address those issues.

JENNIFER: Fantastic. Thank you very much.

CONAN: OK. Thanks for the call, Jennifer.

In terms of decriminalization, what are you talking about, Congressman?

Rep. KUCINICH: I'm talking about decriminalizing the use of marijuana.

CONAN: And that...

Rep. KUCINICH: I'm talking about decriminalizing, I would say, specifically that. And I think that this whole idea of creating a nation of lawbreakers based on, really, conditions that have to do with, you know, voluntary, non-violent conduct that doesn't hurt anyone, you know, we have to look at that. I mean, what's that about? Why are we so insistent on trying to prosecute, for example, people who use medical marijuana? I mean, what is that about? There's a sense in which we get wrapped up in this idea of punishment and we often end up just punishing ourselves.

CONAN: Let's get another caller on the line and this is Brenda and Brenda's with us from Patchogue, New York.

BRENDA (Caller): Hello, Mr. Kucinich, and good afternoon.

I'm just calling about the labor in the United States and what you would do to help get more people involved in their unions because there seem to be so few people in unions. You know, is there anything you would do to help promote that?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, that's an easy one for me because I've been a member of the American Newspaper Guild, Local No. 1 years ago when I worked at The Plain Dealer as a copy boy. After that I've been a member of the American Federation of Radio and Television Artists, working at Channel 8 in Cleveland. And today, I hold a card in the cameraman's union, the IATSE. I will say that I think that the right to join a union is a basic human right, that the right to bargain collectively, the right to be able to strike, the right to decent wages and benefits all help to affirm who we are as people.

As president of the United States, I intend to take specific actions to make it possible to strengthen people's rights to join a union, and that would include having the Justice Department seek to challenge those sections of Taft-Hartley which really make it very difficult to from a union and to protect workers' rights.

BRENDA: Mm-hmm.

Rep. KUCINICH: I will seek to strengthen the National Labor Relations Board with labor-oriented appointees. I'll use the power of the presidency so that all federal contractors, where they have half of the people who are working on a job sign up for a union, they'll automatically have a union. I will make sure that we put labor rights into all of our trade agreements, and I intend to see to the cancellation of NAFTA and the WTO and return our trade back to bilateral trade, which is conditional on workers' rights, human rights and environmental quality principles. My presidency will be about a workers' White House.

BRENDA: I'm happy to hear that.

CONAN: Brenda, what do you do?

BRENDA: Pardon me? I'm a letter carrier and I'm on Long Island. I'm looking forward to seeing Mr. Kucinich in December.

CONAN: OK.

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, may I say this to Brenda? I'm also absolutely opposed to any attempt to privatize the Postal Service...

BRENDA: Yes, I know that. I knew that.

Rep. KUCINICH: ...or any other government function. There's a reason why we have a government, and we shouldn't result in a government of the corporations, by the corporations and for the corporations. I intend to protect public service aspects.

BRENDA: I thank you very much.

CONAN: Brenda, thanks for the call.

BRENDA: OK. Bye-bye.

CONAN: And let's go to Alan, and Alan's with us from Newfields, New Hampshire.

ALAN (Caller): Good afternoon. I'm just wondering about our energy situation. There's so much involved here, and I'm just wondering how the heck you can fund a decent infrastructure on public transportation and at the same time try to get better ways of energy consumption for cars and so forth? It seems like an awfully big, daunting task there.

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, certainly, I'm going to be supporting mass transit, whether it's supporting Amtrak or supporting mass transit in our cities. We need to go towards a rational US energy policy and we need to get away from oil as an instrument of energy. I want to go from non-renewable energies-oil, coal-to renewable energies of wind, solar, hydrogen, biofuels, tides, improved efficiency of energy systems. We can provide society with a low-emission energy economy. And I intend to take steps in that direction.

And it also means that ending the massive subsidies of fossil fuels and nuclear power. Those subsidies should be reallocated toward sustainable solutions such as new energy R&D. You know, I'm committed to a global green policy which will enable us to help protect our global environment, which will enable us to restore the global economy through pursuing strategies of cleaning up the environment with renewable energy.

CONAN: And specifically on Alan's point about mass transit?

Rep. KUCINICH: Mass transit. As I indicated, I'm a strong supporter of mass transit. I intend to support mass transit in our cities, as well as to give strong support for Amtrak.

CONAN: Alan, you're in New Hampshire?

ALAN: Yes.

CONAN: Who you planning to vote for at this point?

ALAN: Well, so far it's Dennis Kucinich. But I have to be honest with you. He's awfully low percentagewise as far as the polls go, so I'm just wondering what his comment is on that, as well.

CONAN: Yeah. Down around 1 percent and trailing the field thus far in both Iowa and New Hampshire.

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, actually, Neal, I appreciate you keeping everyone posted on that. The last polls that I've seen have been up a little bit higher than that...

CONAN: OK.

Rep. KUCINICH: ...although I will concede that I'm a long shot. But a lot of people are starting to support me because I'm a long shot because my policies resonate with their hopes instead of their fears. And so my candidacy offers people a clear choice. You know, you mentioned at the top of the show that we covered Iraq the last time...

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Rep. KUCINICH: ...but the truth of the matter is that my call for ending the occupation of Iraq, my call for ending any talk of the draft, my call for stopping this proposal that even Democrats now are-some Democrats are jumping on to, to have 18-year-old women sign up for the draft, is going to, I think, strike a responsive chord around this country. And this campaign's going to be closing fast in New Hampshire and Iowa and in every state where people are looking for an alternative. That's what my candidacy provides, a real alternative within the Democratic Party. And, frankly, it's the only kind of alternative which can be successful in replacing the person who's in that White House right now.

CONAN: Alan, thanks very much for the call.

ALAN: Thank you, gentlemen.

CONAN: Bye-bye.

ALAN: Bye.

CONAN: I wanted to ask you about your administrative experience, Congressman Kucinich. You were a mayor of Cleveland many years ago, a long time ago now, back in the '70s, and were involved in a lot of scuffles, it's easy to say; confrontations throughout that time, barely survived a recall vote and was eventually, after a major confrontation over the Municipal Lighting Company in Cleveland, which you refused to sell, lost an election in a landslide. A lot of people said that your management style while you were mayor was combative, a take-no-prisoners style. Would that be the same style you would bring to the White House?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, look at it this way. You know, I'm proposing a Department of Peace. I believe that we can use non-violence to help successfully create peace in the world. And as president of the United States, I'd take those principles into the White House. When I was mayor of Cleveland, I was faced with a very serious decision whether or not to sell the city's municipal electric system to a giant utility monopoly. And the biggest bank in Cleveland on December 15th, 1978--it'll be 25 years-told me that unless I sold our city's electric system, a system that had provided the people of Cleveland with cheaper electricity for 70 years, they were not going to renew the city's credit. So I had to take a stand. I took a stand; I said no. I lost the next election.

But years later, the people of Cleveland asked me to come back because they realized that decision saved the city hundreds of millions of dollars, saved the people of Cleveland millions of dollars, and that in the long run, it was the right decision.

Now was I perfect as mayor? No. But I defended the public interest. I took on the Enrons of that moment and stood up for the people. I think the people of this country would be happy to know that there's one public official who would be fearless in confronting corporate power, who would be fearless in confronting the Enrons and the energy monopolies, the monopolies in agriculture and the monopolies in media and every other place to defend the public interest. I've already proven I can do that, and I'm ready to do it as president.

CONAN: On another important issue, abortion, you are a practicing Catholic and came to embrace abortion rights rather late in your political career. Do you still consider yourself a practicing Catholic?

Rep. KUCINICH: I consider myself a Catholic. I mean, I was baptized a Catholic and I also have a religious view that embraces all religions and all manners of belief and disbelief, because we live in a pluralistic society and we must keep in touch with the fact that there are many different ways to transcendence and everyone in this country under the Constitution has a right to pursue, you know, each way they choose.

And so as president, I've said that I would protect a woman's right to choose, but I also want to work to make abortions less necessary through sex education and birth control. And for those who want to see life supported, I am promoting prenatal care, post-natal care, child care, universal health care, a living wage. These are the things that will help to produce a culture which truly respects the integrity of each person.

CONAN: What was it about this issue that made you waver on it for so long?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, I wouldn't say waver. Look, you know, I've been very concerned about the issue of abortion. And yet when I saw Congress, after the Supreme Court had ruled in the Stenberg vs. Carhart case, an act that was passed in Nebraska, did not provide for considerations of a woman's health, did not identify the procedure which is required under Roe vs. Wade and placed an undue burden on a woman-I looked at that and I said, you know, 'Wait a minute. You know, we should see the direction we're going with this,' and I voted for an amendment by Representative Baldwin which sought to cure the defect in the legislation that Congress was about to pass. And when Congress nevertheless persisted to pass it, for the first time in my life I voted present on such a bill, and that began to signal a shift that occurred only after the help of the women in my life who kept appealing to me, 'Look, Dennis, this is not only about choice; this is about a woman's essential equality in society.'

And so I think that as president I can help balance the conflict in this nation over abortion. I think that I can help reconcile people on this issue. I think I can help depolarize the issue by saying that we must do everything we can to make abortions less necessary through sex education and birth control, but we must do so within the context of protecting a woman's right to choose and, thereby, recognizing a woman's right to a full status in our society, a full recognition of her rights.

CONAN: We've already kept you five minutes longer than we promised your staff that we would let you go. But I can't let you go without asking, do you still carry Rocky Colavito's baseball card in your wallet?

Rep. KUCINICH: Absolutely, and I'll tell you why. I mean, I have it right now. I can reach back, I can look at it, and there he is in his, you know, red-white-and-blue Cleveland Indians uniform. And let me tell you why I carry that: because, you know, one day in 1959, Rocky Colavito hit four straight home runs in one game. And it reminds me that it's possible every time you get up to the plate to hit a home run. And I hope that I hit one today. And if your listeners are interested, they can go to my Web site at kucinich.us to get more information about the one campaign that'll change this country, the one campaign that'll help people change the world.

CONAN: We may get to see you again in Des Moines January 6th, the public radio debate. We hope you'll join us there. It's in that same building where you are right now, in fact.

Rep. KUCINICH: I'll be there.

CONAN: Representative Kucinich, thanks very much.

Rep. KUCINICH: Thank you.

CONAN: Dennis Kucinich joined us from the Des Moines bureau of Ames, Iowa's WOI.

And you're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

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