MSNBC Tucker - Transcript

Joining me now from New York, Congressman Charlie Rangel, the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee.

Mr. Rangel, thanks a lot for joining us.

RANGEL: Good to be back with you, Tucker.

CARLSON: You‘ve been on a couple times on this show over the last week gallantly defending Nancy Pelosi and explaining that Democrats really are unified. With that in mind, I was amazed to read Nancy Pelosi essentially disavowing your plans to reinstate the draft. She said yesterday on television that you "don‘t have jurisdiction" to do anything like that and she doesn‘t support it even if you did.

Why? Why doesn‘t she support your idea?

RANGEL: Well, first of all, the committee haven‘t organized. And I don‘t ask anyone to support my legislation until we have to support it.

Recently, General Abizaid said that for those who want to send more troops to Iraq, that we don‘t have the resources to do it, that we would have to increase the active service. And so either that means going deep into the reserve, the Marines and the Army are not meeting their goals—they have $4 billion that they‘re spending in recruiting, especially setting up recruitment in cities that have the highest unemployment or the poorest communities. They‘re offering $40,000 in some cases as a bonus, $70,000 in educational benefits, and they‘re not reaching their goals.

How are they going to do this unless they have the draft?

CARLSON: But I‘m confused, Mr. Rangel, because you don‘t support them doing it. That is, you don‘t support, as far as I know—at least you didn‘t last week—support sending more troops to Iraq. So why would you want to increase the size of the military?

RANGEL: Well, I would think that if they recognize we have this shortage, that people would be less prone to make the decisions to put the military as an option on the table if they thought that it just won‘t be my communities that would be affected, but everyone in the Congress, in the Pentagon, in the White House, and throughout the country. I am thoroughly convinced that if we had a draft, we would not be in Iraq today.

CARLSON: But wait a second. Two points.

One, the Pentagon, because of, in fact, your complaints, has studied this question very specifically. And they found that—that those serving in combat in fact don‘t come disproportionately from your community, as you put it. They tend to be Hispanic, middle class, or white, actually. That‘s what the Pentagon discovered.

And second, isn‘t it a pretty democratic system that we have now? If you support the war in Iraq, you know, you join the military. If you don‘t, you don‘t. I mean, that‘s pretty democratic isn‘t it?

RANGEL: No. First of all, that‘s just not so. I have statistics to show in higher-income communities we don‘t have anyone that‘s enlisting. And the poor communities in the city of New York is where we have our casualties and where we have enlistees.

And really, you don‘t need any report to know that kids from affluent families...

CARLSON: Yes?

RANGEL: ... that have an opportunity economically do not really consider going to Iraq and being in harm‘s way as an option. Now, when I was 18 and dropped out of high school and didn‘t have any place to go for employment, I, too, sought the Army. And so, $40,000, $70,000 for education is not as voluntary as you might want to make it.

You don‘t have the options that more affluent people have. And that‘s a fact.

CARLSON: But wait—but wait a second. Isn‘t—I mean, you‘re essentially making a philosophical case that, if you‘re going to have—a draft would require policymakers to think through their policy, right?

RANGEL: Yes.

CARLSON: It would require all of us to support a war effort in order to have a war. But isn‘t—a voluntary Army the means to do just that. Again, it‘s perfectly democratic if you support it and you join it. If you don‘t, you don‘t.

RANGEL: Well, let me say this. I love my country like anybody else. I served in the Army, I got shot, the Purple Heart and a Bronze Star, and I would have rather not have had that option.

CARLSON: But you served during—there was a draft, of course. You served in Korea.

RANGEL: I enlisted.

CARLSON: OK.

RANGEL: I enlisted. And I‘m just saying that, once you‘re in, the patriotic thing to do is to do what you are told to do.

CARLSON: Yes.

RANGEL: But when you‘re out, we have to wonder why would there—in the first place, I owe it to the military. Kids that are going over there three or four times, and this is not what they‘re volunteering to do—and if we are going to expand our ability to introduce military troops, I‘m saying it‘s unfair just to have the same troops going over, over and over.

We‘ve got about 150,000 troops over there, one-third of our National Guard. You don‘t believe that the National Guard‘s people should be going over there two or three times.

CARLSON: No, I don‘t. I think it‘s awful. I think it‘s one of the many tragedies of this war.

I don‘t support it. It makes me feel sad and sick to my stomach. I agree with you...

RANGEL: And so what you‘re saying is...

CARLSON: But hold on. But your idea is taking it—for a draft, it‘s not supported by the people who run the military.

RANGEL: No, it‘s not supported by anyone who wants to be in harm‘s way.

CARLSON: Exactly.

RANGEL: But what I‘m saying is that, if it‘s in our national interest, everyone should be prepared to make a sacrifice and not go to the communities and offer money and college education benefits for those people who really can‘t afford not to go.

Now, you know that makes sense, Tucker.

CARLSON: But that‘s just not the truth, Mr. Rangel. There have been—I mean, this is a subject, again, thank to you that has been studied exhaustively. And the people serving in combat positions are not again—this is a matter of fact, not of conjecture—disproportionately from poor backgrounds. They‘re just not. That‘s just not true.

RANGEL: Listen, I am glad, if nothing else, that there be studies. But if you believe those on the way to Harvard and Yale are volunteering in the military, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I want to sell you.

CARLSON: I already bought it.

Mr. Rangel, thanks a lot.

Charlie Rangel from New York.

RANGEL: It‘s good to be back with you.

CARLSON: Thank you.

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