MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

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MATTHEWS: Thank you, David Shuster. We‘re joined right now by two U.S. senators who met with the president‘s nominee for CIA director today, General Michael Hayden.

Republican Senator Trent Lott and we begin with Democratic Senator Dick Durbin. General Hayden indicated to you today he could support a congressional debate on modifying the law covering spying on Americans. Are you satisfied?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL), MAJORITY WHIP: Well, I think it‘s a step in the right direction. We‘ve said from the start, we passed the Patriot Act with a strong bipartisan vote. We passed the reauthorization with a strong bipartisan vote.

If the president needs us to change the law so that he can stop terrorists associated with al Qaeda from striking America, he‘ll get bipartisan support. What we object to is the idea that he doesn‘t have to follow the law. Every president has to follow the law.

MATTHEWS: So you‘re liberalizing the law so his behavior is now legal?

DURBIN: Well, I don‘t know how far we have to go, Chris. What it boils down to is we don‘t know the program. I‘ve never been briefed on it, but I want to find out why this administration, the first in history, doesn‘t believe that they can go to this court, which has been very cooperative, and work with them to wiretap those who might threaten the United States. I just don‘t understand that.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Senator Lott. This smacks of FDR packing the court. I mean, if you don‘t think somebody has obeyed the law, then you change the law so they are obeying it.

SEN. TRENT LOTT ®, MISSISSIPPI: Well we can always look at the law and see if it needs to be improved. I think if you‘re talking about more requirements to go to these special courts, I don‘t think that‘s a particularly good idea.

But you can always, you know, ask questions about can we do a better job. And as far as being briefed about the program, I‘ve been briefed, and I think Senator Durbin is on the intelligence committee. And I think he got a briefing on it. Now maybe we don‘t know all the nuances of it, and maybe we need to get more information, and that‘s fine, because that‘s what we‘re supposed to do on the intelligence committee.

MATTHEWS: Senator Durbin, is that true, you were briefed and knew what the president‘s people were doing in terms of spying on Americans?

DURBIN: No, I‘ve not been on the intelligence committee for the last year and a half, but I was never briefed on this program. But I did serve on it for four years with Senator Lott.

MATTHEWS: Well did you know about what the president was up to in terms of what Michael Hayden was up to, the general running of the program? Did you know that they were intercepting electronic communications between Americans and overseas?

DURBIN: Well I know they do a lot of interception of communications. But I didn‘t know the particulars. It was my understanding that whenever it involved an American citizen, that the president was following the clear law, which says there is only one place he can go, and that is to this court for approval. I was really surprised to learn what the press accounts that he has not been going to the court, he‘s been doing it on his own.

MATTHEWS: Do you believe that the law should be liberalized to allow him not to have to check with the court?

DURBIN: No, I don‘t. Here‘s what I think. If the president believes we need to change the law, let him bring that proposal before us. When they suggested they wanted to go ahead and wiretap, come in 72 hours later for approval, that‘s reasonable. I can go along with that and that‘s how we change the law. But in this situation, they‘re not suggesting changing the law. They‘re saying they don‘t have to follow any law.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, Senator Durbin, the American people for the first time now really have a majority view that we were wrong to go to Iraq. They don‘t believe in the president‘s decision made sometime in 2001 or 2002 to invade in 2003.

Are you—you are now—are you still where you were back then? You don‘t think the president should have gone to war in Iraq the way he did?

DURBIN: There were 23 of us who voted no, one Republican and 22 Democrats and I was in their ranks. I still feel the same today.

MATTHEWS: Senator Lott, do you still think you were right, even though 56 percent of the American people now say you were wrong?

LOTT: Absolutely I think it was the right decision. It is bipartisan and I think that we‘re going to see a slow but improvements in Iraq. They are going to move toward democracy, they are going to do a better job of defending themselves and it‘s going to have long-lasting effect in the entire region.

But let me just make one other comment in this whole area here, Chris. You know, General Hayden, we mentioned, has been nominated to be the head of the CIA.

I think it‘s very important that we need to get a new head in the CIA that will bring more—a clear leadership there, move toward more human intelligence and do a better job of coordinating with all the intelligence agencies.

I have been known to oppose nominees when I didn‘t think they were qualified and I‘ve done that even this year. I think this nominee is eminently qualified. We need to have this hearing quickly and get him confirmed.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the Republican nomination for the next time to replace this president. Were you impressed by President Bush‘s comments, so favorably about his brother being a great future president?

LOTT: Well, certainly you would say that about your own brother.

Otherwise your mother might discipline you.

Look, I don‘t think it‘s going to happen in 2008. Frankly, I don‘t think it‘s a good idea. I would not be supportive of Jeb Bush running for president. But I certainly understand why the president would say that about his own brother.

MATTHEWS: Could Jeb beat Hillary?

LOTT: I don‘t think so, no.

MATTHEWS: Hillary would beat Jeb.

LOTT: You know, I think the Republican nominee will eventually be able to win, will be able to beat Hillary Clinton or any Democrat.

MATTHEWS: Whoa, you‘re just revising and extending here, Senator.

You just said that Jeb would lose to Hillary.

LOTT: I don‘t think he‘d be the best candidate for the nomination.

You know, I‘ve said that about and I‘m not backing off of that.

MATTHEWS: So Jeb would lose to Hillary. I just won‘t allow you to stand or fall here like a good Southern man. Are you willing to stand where you food two minutes ago?

LOTT: And say—

MATTHEWS: Do you think Jeb would lose to Hillary? We got it on tape.

LOTT: I think he would have a hard time defeating her.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask Senator Durbin, do you think Hillary Clinton would have a problem with Jeb Bush, his brother the president brought his name up.

DURBIN: I can understand the Bush family wants to keep this in the family, but this is going a little too far. Isn‘t there somebody else in the Republican party that can run other than a member of the Bush family?

MATTHEWS: A lot Republicans would say the Democrats are trying to keep it in the family by bringing Hillary back in and Bill to live in the Lincoln Bedroom again.

DURBIN: You have a point there.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about a serious point. Hillary Clinton today said, I‘m being a little bit comical but we‘re talking about serious stuff, she said that the president of the United States is charming, charismatic and damn good company. Do you agree, Senator Durbin?

DURBIN: Absolutely. Any personal and private conversation I‘ve had with President Bush has been a lot of fun. We‘ve talked about everything from baseball to exercise, yes, I really enjoy his company. I disagree with his policies by and large but I think he‘s a very charming person.

MATTHEWS: Do you think that‘s superficial affability and underneath he‘s really a tough ruthless Machiavellian, Senator Lott?

LOTT: I think he‘s a very affable personality, he‘s typical of that area of West Texas that he‘s from, he can be a tough fighter for the things he believes in. I don‘t think he‘s a Machiavellian politician though.

MATTHEWS: Are you back in the leadership race if you get back in this November, Senator?

LOTT: I don‘t have any immediate plans to that effect, but I would like to see us produce more results than we‘ve been producing in the United States Senate. I don‘t know that any one person or group of people can change that, but Democrats and Republicans need to find ways to work together to produce results for the American people, whether it‘s on pensions or health care, we‘ve been trying to do something in the health area this week. I think the best politics of both parties is to produce results, and there‘s plenty of credit to go around when you do that.

MATTHEWS: Do you think Senator Frist, the leader right now of your party in the Senate, is too much the agent of the White House to be an effective leader and be bipartisan?

LOTT: I don‘t know if I would describe him in that way. I think that the prospect of being a candidate for president is a distraction and makes his job more difficult, but I don‘t think working with the White House is something that has been a problem for him.

MATTHEWS: Do you think Frist should do what Bob Dole did and sacrifice his Senate seat so he can be a better candidate for president?

LOTT: Bob Dole didn‘t ask my advice when he did it and Bill Frist won‘t do that either. I say once again and it‘s been proven over and over again, majority leaders cannot be majority leader and run for president at the same time. It‘s an impossible job.

MATTHEWS: Thank you both, thank you both for coming on, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois and Trent Lott of Mississippi. Coming up, President Bush‘s poll numbers are freezing right now, well below 32 degrees. HARDBALL analyst Bob Shrum and former Bush 41 advisor, Ed Rogers, will be here to talk about that. And Senate hopeful Harold Ford Jr. is coming here. You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

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