Meet the Press - June 25, 2023

Interview

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Thanks, Chuck.

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Well, Chuck, if you put this in perspective, what we've seen is extraordinary. Think about it this way, 16 months ago, Russian forces were on the doorstep of Kiev in Ukraine, believing they would take the capital in a matter of days and erase the country from -- from the map as an independent country. Now what we've seen is Russia having to defend Moscow, its capital, against mercenaries of its own making. So, in and of itself, that's extraordinary. And in so doing, we've also seen rise to the surface profound questions about the very premises for this Russian aggression against Ukraine that Prigozhin surfaced very publicly, as well as a direct challenge to Putin's authority. So, I think we've seen more cracks emerge in the Russian facade. It is too soon to tell exactly where they go and when they get there, but certainly we have all sorts of new questions that Putin is going to have to address in the weeks and months ahead.

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It's hard to put myself in Putin's head or Prigozhin's for that matter. And keep in mind, both individuals are responsible for terrible acts committed against the Ukrainian people. Also, in the case of Wagner, in country after country in Africa, wherever Wagner goes, death and destruction and exploitation follow. But I think it does point to the fact that this is an internal matter. This is a challenge coming from within to Putin and that's where his focus has been. Our focus is resolutely and relentlessly on Ukraine, making sure that it has what it needs to defend itself and to take back territory that Russia has seized. The president brought together the national security Cabinet. He brought together our key allies and partners to make sure that the unity of purpose, the unity of action that we've had with regard to Ukraine remains and it does.

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I think it's important for us not to speculate and I suspect that we'll learn more and more in the days and weeks ahead, including the actual details of whatever deal was struck. It may be that Putin didn't want to debase himself to the level of negotiating directly with Prigozhin, so it was useful to get someone like Lukashenko into this on his behalf. But again, that is speculation. We want to avoid that. We want to focus on the facts and we want to keep the focus on Ukraine.

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Well, Chuck, I'm obviously not going to comment on intelligence matters. What I can say is this, I think it's been no secret to many people over many months that these tensions were rising, they were brewing. Prigozhin was already saying some rather extraordinary things about Russia's conduct of the war in Ukraine and going directly at Russia's military leadership. So, this was a rising storm, but I'm not going to comment on the intelligence itself.

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Too soon to tell. We'll see if this means that Wagner forces are coming out of Ukraine. I mean, the very fact that over the weekend Wagner forces were coming out of Ukraine and going into Russia and toward Moscow, in and of itself, is extraordinary. But where this goes, whether those forces remain in Ukraine, whether they become integrated into the regular Russian military, what it means for Wagner in Africa, too soon to tell. But the fact that this is, at the least, an added distraction for Putin and for Russia. I think its to the advantage of Ukraine. It continues to move forward with the counteroffensive. These are early days, but they have in hand what they need to be successful. It's going to unfold over weeks and even months, but this just creates another problem for Putin. And keep this in mind, too, Chuck, this is just the latest chapter in a book of failure that Putin has written for himself and for Russia. Economically, militarily, its standing in the world, all of those things have plummeted. We have a united NATO that's stronger than ever before, a Europe that is weaning itself off of Russian energy, Ukraine that Putin has managed to alienate and unite at the same time. Now, with trouble brewing from within, as I said, just adds more questions that he has to find answers for.

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Chuck, I'm not going to get into what diplomatic or other communications we had with Russia, but of course we're very focused any time there is instability in a major country like Russia, particularly one with nuclear weapons. There has been no change in their nuclear posture, there's no change in our nuclear posture, but it's something that we're watching very carefully.

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I don't want to speculate on that. We're, as always, regardless of anything else that's happening, intensely focused on making sure that we do everything possible to bring home Americans who are unjustly or arbitrarily detained, including in Russia. That focus will remain.

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Chuck, it is full speed ahead for their -- the counteroffensive, but they have a plan and they have a very deliberate plan. They are prosecuting that plan. And we have more than 50 countries that continue to support them in that effort to make sure that they have everything they need to do as well as they can in taking back the land that was seized from them by Russia over the last 16 months. That is in train, but it's going to take some time, weeks, maybe even months. There are very strong defenses that the Russians have built up in recent months that the Ukrainians are working their way through. But at the end of the day, the bottom line really is this, and it's the reason that Ukraine will prevail: this is about their land. This is about their future. This is about their freedom, not Russia's. And that is, in a sense, the real difference maker that you're going to see unfold.

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Chuck, I can't put myself in their minds. What I can say is this. I went to China at the president's instruction to try to bring a little bit more stability to the relationship. We have an obligation to responsibly manage that relationship. China does as well, and we hear that from countries around the world. And restoring strong lines of communication, making sure that we can talk directly about the many and profound differences we have, as well as looking for places that we might be able to cooperate, that's important. And I think we put that in train. But part of my visit was to tell them very clearly that we're going to continue to do things and we're going to continue to say things that you don't like or won't like, just as you're doing things and saying things that we don't like. But we have to work our way through them. And that's exactly what we're doing.

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Again, I've been very clear that we will continue to do as we've always done, which is to stand up for our interests, stand up for our values, and say what we think. And at the same time, again, they're doing the same thing.

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We have been not only looking, but also engaging in a number of countries over the last couple of years where China is trying to get a foothold. And we've been engaged diplomatically in a number of places and we've had some success in either preventing that, delaying that, or turning that around. We continue to do that. I've raised that directly with my Chinese counterparts. They know where we stand on that issue.

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No, we actually have raised this with the Cubans as well. So, they also, for them, there's no secret about the concerns that we have and the fact that we're watching this very carefully.

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Again, we've made clear that this is a real concern. And as I said, in a variety of places where China's tried to get a foothold militarily or with intelligence, we've been not only looking at that, we've been taking action to try to push back and we've had some success.

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Thanks, Chuck. It's good to be with you.

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