NBC "Meet the Press" - TRANSCRIPT Meet the Press - January 22, 2023
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. For decades, opposition to Roe v. Wade was a litmus test in the Republican Party. Now on the 50th anniversary of that decision and the overturning of the constitutional right to an abortion, Republicans are in an uncomfortable position. Activists are pushing for tougher abortion restrictions, calling for a national abortion ban in some cases, while the swing voters Republicans need to win in swing districts or statewide in general elections increasingly favor keeping abortion legal. It's an issue that will continue to be pushed into the headlines for the next year or two by the coming Republican presidential primary and by state legislatures, every one of them convening this calendar year, which have already passed abortion bans into law and are expected to be very active this year, both in limiting abortion rights in red states and expanding them in blue states. Joining me now is Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina. Congressman Mace, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Good morning. Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you've made your position pretty clear on your -- on your discomfort with how the national party's been handling this so far, those congressional bills, and in general where you think the party needs to go. But let's get some specifics here. When you look at the public's opinion about Roe, and in some ways, Roe has become more popular since it was overturned, is that the middle ground for the public? You know, maybe nobody loved it on the far left and far right, but was that actually the right middle ground for the American public?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, Roe, if you look at the details, would have allowed, you know, abortion up until birth of the baby, which is not something anyone, the vast majority of the Americans, support. But I will tell you, living in a swing district and representing a swing district, I polled the issue over and over and over again. I've done a number of town halls. In fact, I had my first town hall of this Congress last week. And it is a top issue for swing voters. It's the number two issue in my district, and the vast majority of people in my district don't like what happened after Roe was overturned. They support women's right to choose, generally. But I have spoken to Republican and Democrat women, and the folks in my district, swing voters, are willing to find some middle ground here. Everyone recognizes abortion up until birth is not something that they want. And at the same time, banning all abortions with zero exceptions isn't something people support. And so where is the middle ground? How do we get there? Democrats are at 24 weeks, for example, with gestational limits; Republicans, 12 to 15 on average. Can we find some middle ground around 20 weeks, for example, if we're talking specifics on some sort of gestational limitations when we're talking about legislation at the state or federal level? I don't know if we can get there because both sides are really, really entrenched. And I see that because I'm repeatedly attacked by pro-life groups. Even though I am pro-life, I'm at least willing to have some concessions, find that middle ground because the vast majority of people I represent, that's what they're asking for, not digging in on the far right or the far left on this issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I hear where you're trying to go and, I think, what you're trying to do. Unfortunately, you've got folks that just see it as a morality issue or as a personal freedom issue. And so compromising either your morals or your freedoms is very difficult to do. Do you think this is just we're not ready yet in our politics, that we need to go through a few more cycles? Do you think your party needs to lose more on this issue before more folks look at it the way you look at it?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, it's the reason we didn't get more of a majority. We should have had a dozen or two-dozen-seat majority this legislative session, but we don't because this is one of the issues that was top of mind for swing voters. And when you're looking ahead to '24, whether it's keeping the majority or trying to win the White House, going to the extremes and digging in there isn't going to work for most people. And so when I look at every issue, not just on Roe v. Wade, but every issue, we're so divided. It's refreshing to hear Senator Joe Manchin, whom I sometimes joke he's the most popular Republican in the Senate right now, but to hear him talk about these issues in a very refreshing, balanced way is the way both sides of the aisle need to approach every issue, including abortion. And I'm here, waving my hand, being a very vocal person on this and saying, "I'm pro-life, but I'm willing to sit down and talk about how do we balance the rights of women and the right to life?" At some point, that infant has the right to life. And women's right are equally important, so let's have that conversation. Let's have it in the open. Let's find a way to move together because having a divided Congress means we're supposed to be working together, but both sides are afraid of their primaries. That's not the way we should be operating, but that's the way the majority of people in Congress, they vote and legislate out of fear.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think you may get primaried on the abortion issue?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, I mean, I got primaried last time and the time before that. I get -- I expect a primary in the general election every time, being in a swing district. But I will tell you, even with the far right coming after me on this issue in the last primary, I won overwhelmingly by nine points. And then, when we had our general election, I flipped 40% of Democrat precincts and out-performed the former president in my district, as well, in the most conservative precincts. And so I found a way to try represent all the voices. I can't represent one side or the other.
CHUCK TODD:
You are on the oversight committee, maybe not a lot of people know that. We got news this morning of the FBI conducting the search, finding more classified documents with President Biden. I know that the head of this committee, James Comer, wants to spend more time looking at this, as well. Should -- how do you think the oversight committee, what role should they play in this particular investigation? And can you separate the Biden classified document issue from the Trump classified document issue?
REP. NANCY MACE:
They're very similar. And yet, there are some differences. It's hard to say one or the other because we haven't actually seen the classified or top secret information they both may have been holding. They're similar in that they both wrongly took classified information away from the National Archives and away from, you know, where they should have been deposited in a classified space, like a SCIF that was mentioned earlier today. But the difference between the former president and the current president is that for five years, the current president and these documents were hidden, nobody knew about them. And so -- and when it was discovered, they sat on it for two months, and it wasn't until a reporter leaked it out and wrote a story about did the rest of the country find out about these documents. I am grateful that the president is now being more transparent about it, but he did hide it for two months once it was discovered. And then nobody knew about it for five years. And so any investigation oversight does, part of that is, you know, getting to the other side of this. There's very little information. And so we know everything about the former president and we know that they knew about it for two years. The National Archives, the DOJ, the FBI, they knew where the documents were located. And I do want to see both the current and former president treated equally. I'm glad that the DOJ is investigating it. I want to see transparency and accountability. As was mentioned earlier, the American people are held to a certain standard. So, too, should the current and former president.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask you this: Should the oversight committee treat this -- treat both presidents the same? Right now, it looks like the current chair only wants to investigate the Biden angle of this. What say you?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, I think that's because there's no -- there's very little information about Biden. I mean, these documents were hidden for five years. We have very little information, whereas with the former president, everybody knows that those documents existed. They knew where they were. They knew where they were located.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, they --
REP. NANCY MACE:
There was information that was presented to the public about --
CHUCK TODD:
Let me stop you there. We didn't know where they were located.
REP. NANCY MACE:
-- the number of documents, for example.
CHUCK TODD:
They defied a subpoena, it took a search warrant.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, the FBI and the DOJ --
CHUCK TODD:
In fairness, they didn't know.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, in some media reports, it was stated that the FBI and the DOJ knew where they were located. Now, did that have access to it? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to read from the media reports to actually know. But I do want to see, at the end of the day, the special counsel, the DOJ, treat both of them equally. And there was some discussion earlier in the program about intent. Well, the US could have lied. It's really not about intent; it's about knowledge of having these documents in your possession. And so we'll have to see where the investigation goes, but I do want to make that clarification. Intent is not -- doesn't really matter in this case. It's the knowledge of do you know that you have these documents, and storing them and not giving them back to the appropriate sources, like the National Archives.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move on to the debt ceiling. Do you believe it's a valid exercise to use the debt ceiling as leverage to try to negotiate spending cuts?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, there's no time like the present because we have the debt ceiling looming over us to talk about this. We haven't had a budget since Bill Clinton balanced the budget in 1998, a Democrat president doing that. Before that, it was Republican Richard Nixon in 1970. Clearly, something is wrong. And if you look at nationwide, 49 of 50 states, they balance their budgets every single fiscal year. And, you know, we need to get there, $31 trillion created by both Republicans and Democrats. This is both parties' faults. Now is the best time to have this conversation. And there are plans out there. For example, there's the Penny Plan. I filed that particular piece of legislation in the House. Senator Rand Paul has it in the Senate. That would balance the budget in five years and allow the federal government to raise spending by 10% every year thereafter. I'm not even asking for that. Can we do it over ten years? Let's have a negotiation and build some consensus.
CHUCK TODD:
So you want to use the debt ceiling for this moment? You think it's a proper way to use -- to force this. Why not the budget process? That's the part of this I don't quite comprehend.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, it does -- clearly the budget process isn't working because we haven't had a budget in decades. And there is a lot of hysteria around shutting down the government. But, you know, this happened under the previous administration. The government was shut down for 35 days. There was a stalemate. But people still got paid. Accounts still got filled up. And the sky didn't fall. I would like to see the president -- and so far, he has said he's unwilling to negotiate with Republicans. That is not how to unify our country. We are very divided right now. We have $31 trillion of debt. The responsible thing to do would be to get to the table with Republicans and negotiate a way. How do we prioritize spending? How do we balance the budget? We're not even asking to do it one year like Bill Clinton did it. Can we do it over ten years, which would be, you know, consensus and be compromised? That's a reasonable conversation to have. It's not --
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this: Do you have one thing you're ready to put on the table as a spending cut that you think both parties can accept?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well I think -- Well, obviously no cuts to Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security. That's a nonstarter for either side. But otherwise, it's up to -- I would lean on the agency heads. Whether it's one penny or five pennies, the Penny Plan does it with $0.05 on the dollar in five years. But we can find some way to negotiate. And I believe we should go to the agency heads and say, "Where can you find cuts? Where can we do this?" and do it over the next decade. That's a very responsible measure that we should all be discussing.
CHUCK TODD:
Congresswoman Nancy Mace, always a lot more to get to, but I'm always limited by the amount of time I have here. Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. I always appreciate it.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Any time.
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