MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Eric

Interview

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And joining us now our Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He served as a House impeachment manager during the second impeachment trial of President Donald Trump.

Also with us, Neal Katyal, former acting U.S. solicitor general. He is an MSNBC legal contributor.

And, Congressman Swalwell, there is Chairman Thompson saying if Mark Meadows doesn`t show up that, could be contempt of Congress. We are 21 days into Merrick Garland not doing about the contempt of Congress referral delivered to him for Steve Bannon.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): We have to keep sending the refusals to the Department of Justice, Lawrence, because the day we stop doing that, is the day that witnesses like Mark Meadows will defy our ability to get to the truth.

Now I think the facts and the law when they meet will determine that Bannon should be held in contempt and everyone like Bannon, including Meadows, should be held in contempt. Once that, you know, indictment comes, and I believe it should come, hopefully, others who are holding out and waiting will start coming in. But the select committee has interviewed over 100 witnesses. I know it`s frustrating it`s not done in public view. As you know, as Neal knows, as a prosecutor you want to run an outside-in, bottom- up investigation as in the first impeachment and then highlight the witnesses for the public once you know what they are going to say.

But that includes having the documents to confront the witnesses. We were flying in the blind in the first impeachment. We still did a great job, I believe. But now knowing that we don`t have the precious of time as can he we did with impeachment, we need to see the documents.

O`DONNELL: Neal, Merrick Garland`s constitutional law professor, Harvard Law School, is publicly frustrated with his former student`s delay in taking action on the contempt of Congress by Steve Bannon.

What could possibly explain three weeks?

NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I love Professor Tribe. I get what he is saying. At the same time, I think it`s likely that the Justice Department is taking its time to build a case for exactly the reason that Eric Swalwell was talking about a moment ago.

It takes a while. You want to be methodical about it. Indeed, the first time that Steve Bannon was indicted, it took longer than two weeks for the Justice Department.

Remember, Bannon has already been a convicted felon. A few extra days are worth it if Bannon actually faces a consequence a second time around. I have been willing to, if the Justice Department some slack, because it takes time. If there is no action by next week, sign me up for the Larry Tribe frustration camp.

O`DONNELL: OK. Well, you know, the frustration is based on the eight-day model during the Reagan administration where, you know, it was a Reagan administration official, the Reagan Justice Department took eight days to charge that official with contempt of Congress.

Representative Swalwell, time is everything in congress. Enforcement combined with the timetable of enforcement is what makes enforcement real.

SWALWELL: Here`s why time is everything, Lawrence. We have the midterms coming up and the Republicans have shown themselves as a party that is more comfortable with violence than voting. You saw that they took to task the Republican secretaries of state who did not side with them in the presidential election. But they were perfectly fine when Democratic secretaries of state would say that an election went their way as it did in Virginia.

So they expect their own people are going to be with them and behind them. So they are showing themselves as we go into the midterms that if that`s not the case, if they can`t put in place the barriers to keep us from winning elections, they will resort to violence.

By the way, Lawrence, the evolution that we are seeing here, Donald Trump had to invent a lie to have the violence that took place on January 6th. Here we are into the Biden administration and you don`t even have to invent lies any more for Republican members of Congress to have death threats for voting for, God forbid, roads, bridges, and tunnels. So it`s getting much worse. The temperature is going up. That`s why the pressure is on to get this right.

O`DONNELL: Neal, what is your reading of the appeals court ruling today giving Donald Trump more time to argue over the possible blocking of the delivery of documents to the January 6th committee?

KATYAL: No big deal, Lawrence, whatsoever. When I was in government I sought exactly these temporary pauses. They are called stays.

And the court is -- the court grants them because they are worried about doing something indelible. It`s kind of like the same reason that you look at your friends` user name three times before you Venmo them. Your money is probably going to the right place, but you know once you hit send, it`s never going back.

Same thing here. Even if the claims are bogus, if they make a mistake or something, you can`t undo what has already been seen. There is no chance, Lawrence, that Donald Trump is going to win this claim before the court of appeals. His claim is the joke to be charitable to this.

And Judge Chutkan said presidents are not kings and the plaintiff is not the president. And so she has identified two big problems. One is that Donald Trump is the former president. The current president, as you said in the lead-up to the segment, has already rejected his claim of executive privilege and the Supreme Court has said it`s the current president who largely controls it.

And also, executive privilege can be overcome if there is an overwhelming need. Here Trump is claiming executive privilege like candy, true winners like Steve Bannon, a convicted felon. Winners like Stephen Miller, who evidently took a break from reading John C. Calhoun to plot a coup, with these other cast of characters, winners like Kayleigh McEnany, who hasn`t been able to tell the truth.

So, what all these claims are about is these people are afraid to go to Congress and tell the truth under oath. That`s why they are asserting executive privilege. It`s a loser.

O`DONNELL: Neal Katyal and Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you for joining our discussion. Really appreciate.

SWALWELL: My pleasure.

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