https://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/transcript-beat-ari-melber-10-19-21-n1281952
Interview
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Congressman Jamie Raskin, what is the purpose of tonight`s vote, and based on your knowledge on the committee which has operated in somewhat bipartisan fashion? Do you expect it to pass unanimously?
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): It`s operated in totally bipartisan fashion and it`s actually the best committee I`ve ever been on in terms of people actually being focused on substance and not in a lot of, you know, polemics and rhetorical fire on the dais.
Look, what we`re receiving a report on the possibility of referring Steve Bannon for a criminal contempt prosecution for not showing up. You don`t have a right in the United States of America if you get a subpoena from a court or from the United States Congress just to blow it off and not show up. And that`s precisely what he did. If he is guilty of something, and he`s afraid he`s going to implicate himself, he`s got a right to show up and then invoke the Fifth Amendment and the privilege against self- incrimination.
At that point, we have the right to offer him use immunity. In fact, we have the right to offer him use immunity in advance to confer that upon him in advance. But you don`t have a right to blow off a subpoena and I know that there is a sense of entitlement and privilege among Donald Trump and his coterie of advisers that doesn`t apply, for example, to the hundreds of people who are being prosecuted now for breaking into the building, smashing windows, beating up cops.
Those people at least are facing the rule of law and Steve Bannon and Donald Trump of course want to skip merrily away and we`re not going to have it.
MELBER: So if this passes the committee tonight in the House floor, what is the likelihood that Steve Bannon ends up in jail?
RASKIN: Well, if he were to end up in jail on under just a criminal contempt citation, it would be for the fact that he didn`t show up and that`s going to require a U.S. attorney to go to a grand jury, for the grand jury to be convinced, for them to issue an indictment and then for them to bring the charges against him. But as your guests were just pointing out helpfully, there`s also the possibility of civil contempt as well, which is, he could be facing civil contempt charges.
And that`s the kind of contempt where the common law says you hold the key to your own freedom because you get essentially thrown in jail and here is the key. You can come out as soon as you decide to come and testify. So that`s another possibility. And there`s another possibility of inherent contempt charges being hold before the U.S. House of Representatives itself.
The Supreme Court has said that each House of Congress in the aforementioned McGrain case, each House of Congress has the authority to bring civil contempt proceedings against people who are acting contempt of the American people and act in contempt of U.S. Congress, and also each House of Congress has the exact same authority that a court would to enforce its own order, so we`re exploring every option.
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The full panoply of sanctions we have to see that everybody follows the rule of law and we get the information we need in order to deliver a complete report to the American people about this attack on Congress.
MELBER: When you lay that out, your answer sounds procedural. You`re saying you have door number one inherent, Congress do it itself, but yes, the Congress hasn`t done that, either parties since the `30s. You have civil which takes longer and as you said a moment the person agrees to comply they can get out of prison. And that will be a civil suit filed by your committee under the offices of speaker or the DOJ.
So I guess what I`m asking you is, if we take all of those options together, is it above or below 50 percent odds that Steve Bannon winds up in jail because a lot of people are watching this and say, OK, complex history lessons, is he going to pay or not?
RASKIN: I think he`ll back down before he goes to jail. I know he loves the attention. He relishes it in some sense that`s why I`m a little disappointed he`s getting so much attention out of this, but we`re going to be going after anybody who doesn`t comply with this, not just Steve Bannon. On door number two, by the way, it is not remotely a foregone conclusion, that it takes longer under civil contempt than criminal contempt. I disagree with that conclusion strongly. Civil contempt is --
MELBER: Understood. But let me -- but to get to your point, you`re saying, Congressman, your framework is you think he will blink. You think you guys are putting on the pressure, this is a significant vote tonight, but your expectation, anything can happen, is that when he actually sees that in door number two or three leading to a real chance of jail, you think he`ll blink and in some way try to cooperate with this investigation.
RASKIN: I don`t know exactly at what point in the process it will happen, but Steve Bannon is going to have to accept the fact that he`s a U.S. citizen like everybody else and he`s subject to the law, and that doesn`t just mean like ripping off Donald Trump supporters and enjoying all the benefits that life in America has, including federal employment until you get fired. Being an American citizen means that you have to follow the law and in this case there was a massive attack which he knew a lot about on the democracy in an attempt to overthrow our election.
He promised that all hell was going to break loose. Donald Trump proceeded to say you`ve got fight like hell or you`re not going to have a country anymore. They were clearly involved in both an attempted political coup against Vice President Pence and the Congress, and a violent insurrection which they -- which Donald Trump incited as robust bipartisan bicameral majorities determined at his impeachment trial back in February.
MELBER: Yes. Well, it`s a big night and I know the vote is coming up so I appreciate you making time for us, Congressman Raskin. Thank you.
RASKIN: Pleasure is all mine, Ari.
MELBER: Absolutely. Appreciate it.
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