CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Amy Klobuchar

Interview

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BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

You just heard from Facebook.

I want to now go to one of the top lawmakers leading the push to rein in social media companies, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota.

So, Senator, welcome.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thanks, Dana.

BASH: You just heard Nick Clegg lay out some potential policy changes Facebook could support.

Is -- are you satisfied with what you heard? And be specific. What's the single most important thing Congress could do right now?

[09:20:02]

KLOBUCHAR: Well, first of all, I appreciate that he is willing to talk about things, but I believe the time for conversation is done, the time for action is now.

Basically, for so long, the social media companies have been saying, and the other tech platforms, trust us, we got this.

Well, look where we are now. The guy down the street tells me his mother-in-law won't get a vaccine because she read on social media that it would implant microchip in her arm. We know that the majority of the people that aren't getting vaccines read stuff on these platforms.

We know about the violent content. We know about the kids that have been reading things and been exposed to accounts that are called Eternally Starving or I'm Not Perfect.

BASH: So, he's welcoming Congress, but -- so what should you do?

KLOBUCHAR: But I just think he missed that piece of it when he went through his very deliberate conversation with you.

So let me give you the answers to this. And if they're willing to sign on, I'm all with it. But, so far, we haven't seen that.

One, we need privacy legislation. We're one of the few countries that doesn't have a federal privacy policy that fits the sophistication of these tech companies. That means saying, you know what, if you have got to share your data, if you want to share all your private data, you have got to opt in and make an actual decision to do that. Make that the law of the land.

Right now, the states are struggling to do it on their own. Secondly, we need to make sure that our competition policy is updated. They bought Instagram. We will never know, at Instagram, what innovations could have been developed to help kids, because they bought it.

In the words of Mark Zuckerberg, he'd rather buy than compete. We have to update our children's privacy laws and the work that we have already done. And that must be improved.

And then, finally, yes, the algorithms, transparency, doing more to reform what's happening out there. And so I'm just tired of hearing: Trust us.

And it's time to protect those moms and dads that have been struggling with their kids getting addicted to these platforms and been exposed to all kinds of bad stuff.

BASH: Senator, Section 230, which is the law that shields Internet companies from liability for content posted online, that was written in 1996.

My cell phone was the size of a footfall. Mark Zuckerberg was 11. He didn't even have his bar mitzvah yet at that point, let alone create Facebook. Why has Congress failed to do anything to keep up with the times and regulate these companies?

KLOBUCHAR: And let me say, they are immune from any kind of lawsuits for the profits that they're making when they amplify this conduct.

BASH: So, why are you -- why has Congress not updated it?

KLOBUCHAR: I do think it's important to step back one second. I will get to why.

To me, I was -- I watched the -- I went to see the James Bond movie yesterday, which was great. And I was there with my family. And I thought, OK, so if someone yelled fire in this theater, it's not protected speech, right?

But what if -- and the theater isn't responsible for it. But what if the theater had speakers and they amplified it in every single theater in the multiplex? They'd be responsible for that, right? They be responsible if they put that kind of bad content out.

Facebook is not. And that's why I have a bill to at least, with misinformation from vaccines, to say, you are responsible if you're amplifying this and putting it out there.

Why haven't we reformed this? Why haven't we looked at this immunity in any serious way?

BASH: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: Because every corner you go around, there are tech lobbyists, there are -- money that they're throwing around the town that has made it so that lawmakers are listening to them, instead of listening to the facts.

And I think it's time to listen to people like Frances Haugen, the incredibly courageous whistle-blower that came forward, and not be afraid to take action anymore. Other countries are.

And...

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: Go ahead.

BASH: No, I just want to ask real quick, because I want to get to other issues.

You said as part of your answer that you should break up Facebook. But if Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram were split into three different companies, wouldn't they just compete with one another and make the environment even more potentially harmful?

KLOBUCHAR: You know what? I like competition. I believe in capitalism.

And breaking up Facebook will be up to, by the way, the attorney general's office or something like that. We're not going to do that by law. But what I think has been lacking here is any serious review of these mergers, not just with Facebook, with all of these tech companies, with pharmaceutical companies.

BASH: OK.

KLOBUCHAR: Our antitrust laws are a shadow of their former selves.

We need the resources. And we need to make sure that we have a market solution to some of these things.

BASH: OK.

KLOBUCHAR: I believe the market could reply to some of this, but we're not allowing them to because there's big, dominant platforms that don't allow for competition.

BASH: So, let's -- I know there are a lot of other issues to talk about, which I want to get to, the new report from the Judiciary Committee.

You are a member of that committee. It details former President Trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. How close did the U.S. come to a real constitutional crisis?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, as we know now -- we know he brought the lawsuits that the courts rejected all over this country.

[09:25:01]

We know he tried to convince local election officials to steal votes, which they refused. We now know that, at least nine times, he pressured the Justice Department of the United States, officials that take an oath not to Donald Trump, but to the Constitution, he pressured them to do the same.

And, in his own words, according to notes from the meeting, he basically said that, say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me. Those were his words.

For the most part, they resisted. And that's what we found out from the report. And the report is important because it creates some new information that we didn't have before from people like acting Attorney General Rosen. That information will be very helpful to the January 6 committee... BASH: Right.

KLOBUCHAR: ... that's going on over in the House that's going to look at all.

BASH: So let me ask you about that January 6 committee.

The former president directed some of his former aides not to cooperate with that committee. At least one, Steve Bannon, says he's going to defy the committee's subpoena -- subpoenas, rather.

You are a leading Democrat, as I mentioned, on the Senate Judiciary Committee. Do you think Merrick Garland's Justice Department should get involved quickly and enforce those subpoenas aggressively?

KLOBUCHAR: That's going to be Merrick Garland's decision.

BASH: What do you think?

KLOBUCHAR: But I think, ultimately, the courts will decide.

Yes, I think subpoenas have to be enforced. And for Steve Bannon to claim he has executive privilege, when he wasn't even in the executive office during January 6, that is absolutely absurd. And most legal analysts would agree with me on that.

BASH: Real quick, I want to ask about the $3.5 trillion deal that -- or the potential deal, reconciliation, that is before you guys.

Joe -- Joe Manchin, rather, Senator Manchin, has reportedly said that he wants progressives to choose between the expanded child tax credit, paid family leave, and child care subsidies.

Are you willing to lose any of those -- all of them are your priorities -- any of those in order to get this deal done?

KLOBUCHAR: No, I'm not going to negotiate this on TV. That is going on right now.

And we are becoming -- we are coming closer and closer to an agreement on this. The bipartisan infrastructure bill that's so important -- I know you will hear Governor -- former Governor and future Governor McAuliffe talking about this on the show. That is really important infrastructure for our country.

The second piece of this is what I think of as the people first agenda, making sure we make it easier for people to afford prescription drugs and child care and make sure that billionaires are paying taxes, and that's how we pay for it.

BASH: Senator...

KLOBUCHAR: That's the second part. We're getting closer to an agreement.

We now have the next month to get it done. And I know Senator Manchin. I know the people involved in this. I have been in the rooms. We will get these bills done.

BASH: OK.

OK. Senator, thank you so much for joining me this morning.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you, Dana.

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