MSNBC "The Beat with Ari Melber" - Transcript: Interview with Ted Lieu

Interview

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MENENDEZ: Joining me now, Congressman Ted Lieu of California, former HUD Secretary Julian Castro, and the Center for American Progress` Daniella Gibbs Leger.

Thank you all so much.

Representative Lieu, I`m going to start with you.

Your view of Milley`s actions and what it says about the state of our democracy that General Milley ever found this action necessary.

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): Thank you, Alicia, for your question.

I previously served on active duty as a JAG. And what General Milley was referring to was a rogue nuclear launch. There will be an legal order. And military members do not carry out illegal orders. General Milley absolutely did the right thing by trying to prevent anybody from carrying out an illegal order.

Now, at the same time, the fate of the entire world shouldn`t depend on one general. That`s why I introduced legislation for years with Senator Markey that would require congressional authorization before the president of the United States can initiate an unprovoked nuclear first strike.

MENENDEZ: Secretary Castro Senator Rubio writes -- quote -- "It is a dangerous precedent that should be asserted at any point in the future by General Milley or others. It threatens to tear apart our nation`s longstanding principle of civilian control of the military."

Your response?

JULIAN CASTRO, FORMER U.S. HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT SECRETARY: I think the dangerous precedent was Donald Trump.

It was open secret that there were so many people in office who considered Donald Trump a threat to the security of our country and our world. And it never should have gotten to that point, Alicia.

The fact that it did get to the point was just one more glaring example of how unbalanced Donald Trump was, the fact that he never should have been elected in the first place, and that we not only need to address what happened with Donald Trump, but, as Gavin Newsom reminded us last night after he gave a speech, when he gave a speech after his win, Trump is gone from office, but Trumpism is not dead.

We need to do what we can to stamp that out, this big lie, this fraud that lends itself to this unbalanced approach in our government. So others will debate what the general did. And, of course, we have civilian command in this country. That is the proper way to do things.

But the dangerous precedent was Donald Trump.

MENENDEZ: Daniella, to that point about Trumpism, here`s Representative Gaetz, what he says about the January 6 riot. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GAETZ: The Department of Justice has to maintain this theory that the January 6 detainees maintain an ongoing threat to the government of the United States, so that they are able to take the national security apparatus and turn it against our people.

[18:05:03]

If Kevin McCarthy really wanted accountability for the Stalinist tactics of the January 6 committee, he would remove Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger from the committees that they serve on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MENENDEZ: Daniella, it is easy to talk about all of this as though it is in the rear view. But it is very much in our present reality.

There are ongoing threats to the homeland right now, including domestic terror groups, and elected officials who continue to use bombastic, ridiculous language to describe the response to those threats.

I asked Congressman Lieu about the state of our democracy. How dangerous is this continued disconnect from reality that we`re seeing from some electeds?

DANIELLA GIBBS LEGER, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Yes, it`s extremely dangerous.

And I give credit to the Biden administration for starting to really look at what is going on when it comes to just white supremacist extremism that is fomenting in the Republican -- in parts of the Republican Party.

And to hear Matt Gaetz talk about threats to democracy, it`s laughable, because you had the president of the United States basically do a siren call to his supporters to come and attack the seat of democracy. So I will not take any lectures from Matt Gaetz, certainly not from Donald Trump, about what is a threat to democracy and what is not.

MENENDEZ: Well, and that siren`s call continues to blare.

Representative Lieu, fencing is going to be installed around the Capitol tonight ahead of Saturday`s Justice for J6 Rally. Capitol Police have asked for National Guard support. Are you worried?

LIEU: I am worried.

And all that Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy has to do to reduce the risk of further political violence is say one simple truthful sentence: The election was not stolen.

The refusal of Republican leadership and of most Republicans in general to not say that one simple truthful sentence is a reason that we are going to spend all these resources on January -- on Johnny 6, plus now on September 18, to protect the Capitol and to protect members of Congress.

But this is outrageous. They simply need to tell the truth to their base subject.

MENENDEZ: Secretary Castro, do you think it is that simple? Do you think that hearing it from representatives, from members inside the GOP is enough to undo, to counteract this false MAGA narrative of what happened on January 6?

I agree it is a part of it. But is it the totality of the undoing that needs to happen?

CASTRO: It`s an important part of it, because whether it`s Kevin McCarthy or any number of other Republican officials, they have pretended as though -- knowing full well that this is a big lie, they have pretended like it`s the truth. And that makes it a lot worse.

That allows that misinformation, the disinformation to spread, and for people to believe it. It`s also, Alicia, frankly, going to take something that I think Republicans and Democrats agree on a lot of the times is, for instance, better civics education in our middle schools and high schools, these longer-term investments that we need to make in our democracy.

It`s going to take voting rights legislation that Democrats need to get passed in the United States Senate, so that Republicans cannot rig these elections in their favor based on the big lie. It`s going to take a lot of things in the years to come.

MENENDEZ: Daniella, I want to read you another excerpt from the new book about Mike Pence seeking advice from Dan Quayle, who says: "Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away," Quayle said.

"I know. That`s what I have been trying to tell Trump," Pence said.

Quayle told Pence to: "Let it go. I do know the position you`re in. I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That`s all you do. You have no power. Just forget it."

Daniella, so much to unpack there. What does it tell you that Dan Quayle is his lifeline? And what does it tell you that Quayle`s big argument to Pence is, you have no power?

(LAUGHTER)

GIBBS LEGER: I mean, I read that live and it just -- I shook my head, just like I did just now.

Also, Dan Quayle, elder statesman of the Republican Party, I suppose. I mean, Mike Pence, there`s a part of me that sometimes feels a little bit sorry for him. But, no, I don`t because he knew what he signed up for when he joined Donald Trump.

And the fact that he was still trying to figure out like, well, is there a way for me to get out of this without totally ticking off my boss, maybe not totally subverting democracy? Just throw them all away, all of them.

MENENDEZ: Yes, Representative Lieu, the argument, you have no power, is that where we were?

LIEU: Let me just say having Dan Quayle be the savior of the republic was not on my bingo card.

(LAUGHTER)

LIEU: I am pleased that Dan Quayle did tell that to Mike Pence.

And we`re in a position now where you have radical Republicans continue to feed the big lie that somehow this election was stolen. More than 10 months after the election, they still can`t tell you who stole the election, nor how it was done.

[18:10:07]

And that`s because the election was not stolen. They`re just making this up. And I just urge Republican leaders to stop it, because it`s going to increase the risk of further political violence.

MENENDEZ: You know, Secretary Castro, you put all of this together, and it begs bigger questions about the rail guards that are necessary for our democracy.

You talked a little bit about civics education. You talked about voting rights. When we hear this all retrospectively, when we look forward to what is happening on Saturday, how do we make sure that what happened never happens again, that we never get to that point again?

CASTRO: We need to -- folks need to show up, they need to register to vote, they need to get out and vote. Congress needs to do its job.

I know Representative Lieu and so many others have in terms of voting rights legislation. We need to take this seriously. This is a cancer on our democracy. And so we need to make every effort to combat it. And, ultimately, I believe that a lot of this also is about making sure that our youngest Americans understand how precious our democracy is, know how it works, and are more educated in general and able to sift out truth from lies.

MENENDEZ: Representative Lieu, Secretary Castro, Daniella Gibbs Leger, thank you all so much for getting us started.

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